ORDOS LONG TTERM FIGHTING

[INFONEXUS]

;D

Hi there, I finally decided to register and get into the fray. My question is, on large maps where you will be involved in a 1 hour + long battle against say atreides and hark while you are an ordos with lets say another ordos partner, what is your strategy for surviving the inevitable large scale attacks of tons of minotaurs and missile tanks. I know early in the game you can do hit and runs and deviate and stuff like that, but one on one you obviously can't do much against a force like that coming down on you. Or can you? That's my prob. If and when the battle gets out of hand, I get frustrated at how fragile the ordos appear to be, I can't leave my las tank units unattended fora second! Whereas an atreides player can leave a few minotaurs out without having to worry much about them.  Strategy anyone?

[Fremen_Mentat]

You could launch something I call Engineer Assaults. Load 5 engineers into a APC. Then get it into the enemy base. Capture inportant buildings first(Con. Yard, factory, Refinerie). If you get the con. yard, make it a MCV and move it to your base, by Advanced caryall. Sell other buildings. Launch a assault( do  Sneak Kobra Assaults in the back of the base.

[House_Corrino]

Every opponent has a weakness.  Remember that.

[jacobdouds]

try setting up lots of cobras over time to stop enemy units getting to close. I also suggest building heaps of Mortar infantry. If you make a decent barrier of cobras spaced out over small distances, and fill the gaps with heaps of mortar infantry.

[Chaos_Storm]

"try setting up lots of cobras over time to stop enemy units getting to close. I also suggest building heaps of Mortar infantry. If you make a decent barrier of cobras spaced out over small distances, and fill the gaps with heaps of mortar infantry."

This will cut down large scale assaults of all but the most heavily armoured vehicles. They all happen to be slow and have a long reload time so that where Laser tanks, Deviators and Advanced Carryalls come in. But also consider: 'The best defence is an offense'. By attacking, you take the initiative. It doesn't have to be full scale, you can still play guerrilla warfare. Kobras under cliffs hitting structures from beneath, AA mines in Carryall paths, Deviating/airlifting enemy harvesters (these last 2 actions are silent. Attacking units/structures directly will give the enemy a warning). Guerrilla warfare will annoy your enemies, should stop them from building up a large force by cutting down their income and destroying units before they become a large group. In the meantime, if you are waging guerrilla warfare efficiently, you shouldn't suffer many casualties and you will be the one amassing a large force (EITS are good to build like this, provided your enemy isn't aware of the build up and you don't waste them) or slowly eroding away the enemy with an endless stream of replacements and reinforcements keeping your guerrilla strike teams at full strength (these teams should not rely on overwhelming numbers but on specialisations).

Personally, I find the Deviator is sufficient to stop most vehicle rushes provided they are all hot-keyed, well micromanaged and have distractions provided for them.

I also like using Fremen and Sardaukar (occasionally Ix) as my subhouses. Fremen Warriors are very good at exterminating infantry and surviving due to stealth, long range and quick reload time. Fedaykins are excellent against Minotauruses and Devastators provided you don't send them in a massive group as they will likely be killed by a glitch in your micromanagement and timing (remember, they need to get close to be effective. 3 Fedaykins should be enough to take down a single Minotaurus). Plain Sardaukar can serve as your front-line troops as Ordos don't really have any. Sardaukar Elites are great for Anti-Air defence and giving your Sardaukar troops some extra bite at vehicles when stationed front line.

If an Atreides player leaves a few Minotauruses somewhere and is busy elsewhere, either carry them off by air as experience for APCs or Sardaukar Elites (AA troopers aren't really worth training up in late game), or hit and run with Deviators and Laser Tanks after distracting the Minos. Similarly, with a Harkonnen player with a large scale Missile tank assault, AA troopers and both types of Sardaukar should prove more than sufficient (provided they don't get run over). This depends on how you use your second 'resource': ATTENTION. Attention to units and giving them micromanagement give units a huge upper hand, the Laser Tank and Deviator being very good examples. Keep these units away in a well protected area (e.g. your base or a stronghold with mixed units) whilst you shift your attention elsewhere.

"Every opponent has a weakness.  Remember that. " Find that weakness. See what your opponent likes to attack/defend with. If you spot that they only have Rocket Turrets/Gun Turrets with no/not much Flame Turrets/Machine Gun posts, then send infantry to deal with them - Sardaukar Elites (or even Saboteurs in sufficient numbers to either go for the higher-end turrets or run past and cut out power). After their AA is dealt with, send in the EITS and micromanage them to get perfect strikes. If you realise that your enemy does not have scouts around his/her base, send Infiltrators and Fremen to wreak havoc (don't rely on Fremen to destroy buildings quickly, they are quite slow at this. That's the Infiltrator's job).

Over a 1+ hour game, you will see preferences in your opponent's strategy: Do they ever build Assault Tanks? Do they like amassing large numbers of Air Drones? Any Sonic Tanks or Devastators? What about infantry? See (then later predict) what they are building up. Build to counter what they are building up and if you can, prevent a large group of units forming. The best way to stop a large scale assault is to prevent your opponent amassing all those units (especially with a large enemy airforce). Ordos units are highly specialised so you need to assess each encounter and send units of the right specialisation. Sardaukar can serve as your general purpose attack groups, but support them with whatever is necessary to counter oncoming assaults. Always have reserve Factories and Construction Yards in case you fail to stop a large Gunship fleet from building up.

I hope that's enough to give you ideas. Guess I got carried away typing there  :P

[INFONEXUS]

;D

WOW! I am thrilled that I got such a speedy response. I appreciate the advice there Chaos_Storm. First thing, How come I never see you guys on Westwood? Secondly, after posting, I went into a game and start using more aggressive deviator tactics, more so than before, on harversters and minos and such that were standing around so proudly. Getting people to attack each other is a thrill, it is utter chaos of course. I was using EITS but I soon realized not to send them in  one by one but in a group because after one attacks, our opponent obviously guards his base with alot of AA if he is not stupid. So i suppose the initial strike could of been more potent had iI thought more on it. Also, I was blocking the area entrances off with massess of Kobras ( where the cliffs on the map are outside my base, not at my entrances if u understand) and I was virtually impentarable, with some fremen in front and las tanks and deviators lurking around with AA mines to boot I was a fortress. On my side I had reams of Mortar guys but funny thing, I had quite a few AA guys but they were not shooting down some guys in their range, namely the ADP from the harks. Platforms were wreaking my poor guys on their high cliffs. Is the AA guy out of the ADP from the HARK? Also, another thing I wanted to ask, namely ona small map like spice bowl,

HOW DO U STOP A 2 ON 1 RUSH!! For goodness sake.. I deploy the works and I can't get it. I think the lack of ally support had something to do with it. I supose thats the name of the game in small maps, ally support is of paramount importance moreso than on larger maps.

Also, AA mines are so expensive and not reusable like the Atreides Air Drone, is there a more cost effective way of deploying AA support? Are using APC for AIR killing worth it? If these issues have been addressed, please forgive the redundancy, just tell me and I will search the threads for the answers. And thanks for your time.

[Chaos_Storm]

I only go online if I feel I have 2 hours to spare as games can easily go for that long. On Westwood, I'm Lugeie. ;)

I wasn't aware of AA troopers being outranged by the ADP... If you grab loads and actually tell them to attack the ADP, I'm pretty sure they will beat it. APCs are better for this job (I've read somewhere that an AA mine does the job better still), due to their longer range and being able to get away fast whilst reloading (due to hover). See the 'APC Strategy' thread for more details, but in my opinion, the APC though expensive, is necessary AA against Gunships because the latter are slow. If you spot some Gunships already built and ready to go with more being built, try provoking them to be used early whilst you have a bunch of APCs near them. They get airborne and soon you shoot. Then your APCs outhover the Gunships and get another shot. Then they move back further and this repeats until the Gunships reach your base where they meet tons of AA troopers, AA mines (and some Sardaukar Elites if you have any). Chances are, the Gunships will still make it through  :P and have enough to take out your Con Yard and Factory if this is a human opponent. Place Engineers beside these key structures so that they can instantly repair them during an air strike (you could easily double the damage a Con Yard can take if you have 2 Engineers right next to it  8) - what if you had more? ;D ). As for EITS, I prefer using them to finish off the enemy after I get rid of all his AA. ;D

Preventing a 2 on 1 rush... if I expected that (and we starteed with $30000) I'd quickly build a Factory first and churn out 5,6 Dust Scouts. Then get Chem Troopers, AA Troopers, Mortar and place the Dust Scouts in front of my infantry to prevent being run over. After the Barracks, I'd build an Outpost whilst scouting to see in advance when that rush comes, then 2 refineries. Don't forget to have scouts around your entrances in case they try for early Fremen or Infiltrators. You'd need to decide whether to send any AA to your spice fields early on as well as if they do a Fast Build to Air Drone and knock out your first Carryall, that will seriously damage your economy. Perhaps Saboteurs can replace the Dust Scouts as when Saboteurs are run over (provided your enemy is only sending vehicles so that they stand a chance of surviving as they get into range), they do significant damage to vehicles as they explode - the ultimate infantry deterrant for steam-rolling vehicles but not to Anti-Infantry fire!

As for AA mines, I want to know how to use them effectively as well, so I've started a new thread 'AA mines, how to use them and how not to'.

[House_Corrino]

For AA, have AA troopers behind the front ine.  They are very cost effective.  Just keep minos away from them at all costs.

[INFONEXUS]

:D

Ok the minos i know about. but only the kobra can stand toe to toe with a mino and it will always lose, any thoughts on going head on one on one with a mino? any strategy? i usually deviate and sometimes leech larva.. you would be suprised how often i have devastated 8 or 9 harversters at once and making them explode in to larvas. VERY bad for the enemy of course.. i did it 2 days ago.. against harks...and atreides (2 on 2) of course.. then they swarm their fields with units to defend leaving the base fairly open to more leeching.. very fun.. then u stop for a while making them think itwill not happen again and u do it again and again till they quit

[House_Corrino]

Minos are tough to beat, but here are their weak points:

-slow

-no AA

-can't hit very fast moving vehicals

-long reload time

-only okay against heavy vehicals

[Timenn]

Last point I don't agree... Mino's are good vs light armor and infantery, but not vs heavy armor.

[House_Corrino]

They rock against infantry and are good against light vehicals.  I still say artillery type weapons are okay against armor, but not nearly as good as rockets and las guns.

[Alexander_Ordos]

I had many long battles and believe me - your key to victory lies in sending a horde of EITS. If you don't like EITS than use surprise atacks in open desert, las tank are perfect for it... Aigainst air AA tropers and APC is also good against air. Buil a wall of cobras and a few pop up turrets behind'em that'd be perfect defence. You may also use formations but that's another story...

[House_Corrino]

You can skip building pop-up turrets, since almost all vehicals can outrange them.  Just have mobile anti-vehical defense ready.

[Timenn]

Pop-ups are good for IN base, in case the enemy has guild...

[Alexander_Ordos]

I can't agree about turrets because these pturrets saved my base many times, besause cobras are weak against assault tanks if they come cloce...

[Alexander_Ordos]

True pturrets serve very well against diversional atacks with the guild, but it's better to have some deviators to take those tanks and return them to their owners  ;D ;D - Ordos style...

[House_Corrino]

NIABS have more range than pop-up turrets.

[Timenn]

But when you let your NIAB attack, they will come to close...

[Alexander_Ordos]

True about Niabs besides it's very hard to notice the pturret because it's very small - hide between your buildings and your enemy won't even be able to target them... Pturrets have the strogest damage to vechicles in da game...

[House_Corrino]

Not really.  They're pretty easy to notice and even easier to counter.  I've tested, and NIABs have longer range than pop-up turrets.  I still (and probably will always) rank pop-up turrets as the worst turret for any major house.

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

That's not true. Pop-up turrets have really crappy range, but OH MY LORD THEY DO DAMAGE!

[Chaos_Storm]

I can't agree about turrets because these pturrets saved my base many times, besause cobras are weak against assault tanks if they come cloce...

An interesting strategy - another way of using the Pop-up turret, turning its biggest weakness into an advantage.

Pop-up turrets are very good at keeping enemy vehicles outside their range as they do plenty of damage in a very short time. All 3 advanced turrets of the 3 Houses have similar reload times but because Pop-up turrets finish shooting so quickly, they get to shoot more often overall. Thus vehicles are reluctant to approach a group of Pop-up turrets and will try to outrange them (most can). But to do so would bring you within low-trajectory fire range of the Kobra (unless you are using Inkvine or Minotaurus, both of which can be countered with the shielded vehicles), allowing it to shoot again much faster and be much more accurate than in high-trajectory fire mode. Thus Kobra groups in tandem with Pop-up turrets can should quick work of light and medium vehicles, especially when supported with AA troopers (and possibly Mortar fitting into those gaps that a Kobra is too big for). As for heavy vehicles, well they are slow and will fall prey to Laser tanks and Deviators (or even APCs if you don't have the other shielded units nearby).

AA defence is another matter though. AA mines should be a useful addition to this defence.

[jacobdouds]

Do Ordos Kobras deployed work at close range? Mine seem to stop firing at to close a range.

[Timenn]

Yes they can, but they need to fire high in the air for that, and that makes the bullets easy to avoid...