President Obama

[chatfsh]

But isn't the decision with a profit minded insurance company at the moment in the US? NICE may have to make choices over which drugs we can pay for but they at least aren't concerned purely with profit.

To a limited extent, some insurance companies may appear to be making those decisions by making severally ill clients jump through a lot of hoops

[Dunenewt]

I'm talking about Stephen Hawking.

[chatfsh]

Sorry, I misread your comment.:)

I would imagine that Stephen Hawking and many others are content with the NHS.  I can only attribute that to the fact that if it

[Dunenewt]

If it

[chatfsh]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.  I, for one, am very pleased with the high standard of medical service that I have received in this country.  I truly understand why so many foreigners flock to this country to avail themselves of the best medical care the world has to offer. 

[Dunenewt]

I could say the same...

[chatfsh]

Yes, but in good faith?

The US has captured 40% of the medical travel tourism market as it pertains to patients seeking the world

[Andrew]

Boring. My healthcare is better than all others :D

Man Carrying An Assault Rifle And Pistol Outside Obama Event

Turns out about 12 people were carrying guns. Legal.

President Obama is the real target of healthcare protesters

People are sour about Obama winning, so they are going to protest everything he does.

zomg government offer healthcare insurance? They're taking away my freedoms! They offer it to poorest people and military already, once they start offering it to middle/upper class, America will be destroyed.

Protester Punched At Townhall Meeting

[Edric O]

The US has captured 40% of the medical travel tourism market as it pertains to patients seeking the world

[Mahdi]

Hwi, I just want to say that while I don't agree with, well, pretty much anything you've posted here, I have been very much enjoying the debate between yourself and Dante (and now Edric).  It gives me a great deal of pleasure to read your reasoned, well thought out and civil series of posts.  In this forum's history the few right-wing posters we've had here have been extremely inflamatory and purposely insulting, ultimately even getting banned by our Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeffffffffffffooooooooorrrrrrrmmmmm Party supporting Maha Gobbie.  I'm glad we've finally got someone here more interested in the issues and debate itself than in simply towing the far-right line and provoking the damn-dirty-pinko-bisexual-abortion-loving-hippies.

Personally, I think you had Dante on the ropes.  Though I still think you're wrong ;)

[chatfsh]

Why thank you, kind sir.:) 

No worries, I believe it

[Dante]

She does have a habit of doing what Emprworm and Gunwounds in particular were rather good at: selectively quoting those parts of arguments that can be twisted to another purpose, ignoring various implied subtlties or points that are too difficult to deal with. Since being quoted out of context and groundless extrapolation were what I found most annoying about arguing with Gunwounds, it's hardly a favourable comparison.

Resorting to name calling is not only bad form, it

[Khan]

I believe that the morally superior system is the one that covers all of its citizens and provides world class service and treatment.

So perhaps the better question is -- which system is closer to that model, the NHS or the American one?  I think it becomes abundantly apparent that the US model is closer to being the morally superior and more efficient one.

Ok so Wikipedia isn't an infallible source for an argument but it doesn't take long searching HMOs to see that arguing for morality in the US system is going to be a very short argument. Refusing to give someone a life saving operation because they have the wrong type of insurance is pretty easy to attack and not so easy to defend. NICE doesn't single you out as an individual and decide how you should be treated, the US system does.

[Mahdi]

Dante, I would say more Hwi interprets the quotes diferentlyy than you do and is not purposely lifting them out of context and cliaaming they mean something that they don't.  Besides, half the time Gunwounds did not even have sources and completely disregarded other peoples sources by saying "I talked to these guys"....

And do you really find Hwi's quotes more annoying than, say, a statement claiming that any woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night is a degenerate slut whom no man should accept?  I sure as hell don't.

There is a major difference between Hwi's posts and Gunwounds and Emprwyrm.  Although, personally, I did like Emprwyrm when he wasn't posting his tangents.  We got along well.

[Anathema]

I've decided to take a break from fighting communism to bring you this update.

[chatfsh]

This has got to be one of the most dishonest things you've ever said. I have many American friends who don't have health insurance - most of them in the 18-25 age range (you know, the ones who supposedly don't want it, according to that cartoon you posted). All of them desperately wish they had insurance, but can't afford it because they are unemployed or work part-time as a result of this wonderful economic crisis capitalism has brought upon us. So they just hope Obama passes a health reform or the economy improves before they get sick.

Edric, before you go accusing me of making a blatantly dishonest statement, make sure you do the homework.

I ran a search for private health insurance for individuals in the 18

[Khan]

I went on the website and found out I would only have to pay $56 a month if I was living in California. Oh and the $2500 Deductible. Oh and the 20% coinsurance payments. Oh and the doctors charges until I'd reached $5000. Oh and any prescription drugs. Oh and a payment towards any periodic check up. Oh and for any trips to the ER. Oh and any maternity care (not sure why they added that one). Cheap!

I'm not sure why you would buy that plan. You'd probably end up paying for everything anyway and as an asthmatic the lack of prescription drugs would be pretty costly too.

[Andrew]

- youtube video. 1 min. Very funny. some dumb person thinks Obama is using nazi policies. And she is carrying a picture of Obama that looks like Hitler.

At the end there is an O SNAP moment.

Barney Frank addresses health care in Dartmouth extended version of above video. 6 min

[chatfsh]

I went on the website and found out I would only have to pay $56 a month if I was living in California. Oh and the $2500 Deductible. Oh and the 20% coinsurance payments. Oh and the doctors charges until I'd reached $5000. Oh and any prescription drugs. Oh and a payment towards any periodic check up. Oh and for any trips to the ER. Oh and any maternity care (not sure why they added that one). Cheap!

I'm not sure why you would buy that plan. You'd probably end up paying for everything anyway and as an asthmatic the lack of prescription drugs would be pretty costly too.

A couple of things to note here.  No matter how you slice it healthcare is not free.  In a country where it is socialized, the cost is deducted from your paycheck.  In a country where it is privatized, you must set aside a certain amount of your own funds to cover your healthcare cost.  For the most part, the 18

[Dante]

Hurray! Finally, someone is quoting Thatcher with sincerity. She's only the most demonised figure in British politics, after all. Towards the end even her own party didn't want her. While I respect the woman for her dedication and sheer force of personality, she was a little misguided.

Anyway, back to healthcare. I found another article (funny how these keep cropping up, isn't it?), that among other things details the costs that the writer would have incurred had he broken his leg in the US, as opposed to Britain:

I can't tell what my treatment has cost the NHS, but I have some idea what it might have been in the US thanks to the in-laws' doctor, who gave an estimate based on prices in Houston. The figures are eye-watering. She reckons: $12,000 per operation; up to $3,500 for anaesthetics each time; hospital at $500 a day and ambulance $300 a trip. That's not counting the cost of medicine. It adds up to more than $76,000, or at least

[Anathema]

[hide]

Initially I was reluctant to elaborate on a certain topic because it appeared that the argument lacked validity and was nothing more than a spurious claim.  But recently, more information has come forth shedding more light on the issue.

The subject is healthcare rationing through death panels (councils designed to preside over life and death decisions concerning the nation

[Edric O]

First, let me say that I agree with Mahdi that it's nice to have a knowledgeable and respectful conservative to debate with in PRP, even if she is an eeevil banker. ;) It's quite obvious that FED2k - or at least the PRP forum within it - attracts a disproportionate number of left-wingers. I have no idea why. Maybe there's something in the Dune novels, games or universe that appeals more to leftists...?

Anyway, Hwi, it's great to have you here. I disagree with pretty much everything you have to say even more than Mahdi does, and I strongly oppose the very existence of your profession, but none of that is personal. If we were not on opposite sides of the class struggle, I'm sure we'd get along very well indeed.

A couple of things to note here. No matter how you slice it healthcare is not free. In a country where it is socialized, the cost is deducted from your paycheck. In a country where it is privatized, you must set aside a certain amount of your own funds to cover your healthcare cost.

To be more exact, socialized health care spreads the cost over the entire population and over longer periods of time, while privatized health care places the entire cost on the patient, and (if your insurance doesn't cover the full cost) it concentrates the cost in the short timeframe of the disease or accident. Socialized care is better for sick people, privatized care is better for healthy people.

For the most part, the 18

[Mahdi]

Not of direct relevance (other than the whole US has the best health care money can buy thing) I have a little story to tell.

I know this girl.  She wanted to be a doctor.  Problem is, she was, how do we say... stupid.  Her marks in high school were horrible, she could not even get into University in Canada (or the US).  So she found some impoverished Carribean country and went to school there.  Finished her Bachelors, was ready to go on to med school.  Except that Canada doesn't even recognize the school she went to as a valid university and while the US did recognize the scool, her marks were still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to low to even be considered for med school.  So she stayed in that third world country's University and did her training there.  And graduated.  Canada, not recognizing the school, does not recognize her degree.  The US, despite the fact that no University in the country would accept her for a Bachelors or med school, sinse it does recognize this little Carribean College, does recognize her degree.  So now, this girl who couldn't get into any university in an industrialized country, is now a fully recognized medical practitioner in a fairly large U.S. hospital.

Neat, eh?

[Edric O]

It's the Land of Opportunity and all that, you know? ;D

[Mahdi]

My personal opinion - Canada's health care is good, but has it's problems.  My year spent living in Australia (where I spent 6 months working in healthcare) was an eye opener in that regard.  New South Wales had a mixed public/private system.  You go in the hospital, you have a choice:  If you have private insurance you can elect to use it, or you will be admitted under the public system.  The treatment is the same either way - the advantage lies in perks.  If there's a private room available, and it's not needed by anyone else, people with private insurance get first crack at it.  Little things like that.  And that's it.  They don't get preferential treatment, they don't get extra tests, nothing.  If a homeless guy comes in needing a private room because of medical reasons, well, out goes the millionaire back to the shared rooms.  Everyone, hobo's and millionaires, they all got their MRI's and CT Scans and X-rays right away since the whole system had more money due to half the patients using private insuarance companies pay their bills.

Seemed to me to be an excellent solution.