Will we even encounter an alien spaceship from a world without birds?

[Edric O]

This idea occurred to me while reading Ursula LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness. In that novel, the inhabitants of the planet Gethen have a level of technology comparable to present-day Earth, but, among other things, they completely lack aircraft. Their world completely lacks birds or any other kind of large flying creature, and one Gethenian rhetorically asks, "How could it ever occur to a sane man that he could fly?"

Indeed, if there were no birds, would we ever have come up with the idea of flying machines? If Earth's atmosphere was permanently cloudy and we never saw the stars, would we still want to reach them?

We often assume that the required conditions for the rise of a technological or spacefaring civilization are purely biological and physical. We need to be intelligent creatures, we need to have hands to build things, we needed fossil fuels to power our industrial revolution... But are there psychological conditions as well? Is something as random as the existence of birds necessary in order for a civilization to invent flying machines, and, later, spacecraft?

[Vanguard3000]

Kind of reminds me of the part in the Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy series, about a planet in a dust cloud, whose inhabitants believed they were alone in the universe because they couldn't through the atmosphere, until a passing space liner crashed into their world.

I think the absence of "inspiration" (birds, in your example) would certainly hinder a thread of research, but would not entirely prevent it from occurring entirely.  Eventually, people would create their own source of inspiration.  Think of all the stuff we have today because of inspiration from science fiction.

I think a good example is the idea of spacial dimensions beyond the three we can see.  We've never seen any sort of being that can perceive and traverse a fourth dimension, but because of scientific theories in the late 1800s (simplified in Edwin A. Abbott's Flatland), many believe it to be a possibility.  In essence, the hyperdimentional being is our Gethenian bird.

Perhaps the trick to discovering new methods of transportation is to fool oneself into believing such methods are already being used in nature.  ;)

[SandChigger]

I forget, do the inhabitants of Gethen not use any projectile or thrown weapons?

One progression might be from spear/arrow to missile to, eventually, vehicle for carrying objects or passengers.

I suppose a civilization could arise during a period when there were no flying creatures on the planet in question, but when you look back over the history of life on Earth, there have been wing

[Khan]

That's exactly what I was thinking, although my mind filled with an angst ridden teen throwing stones into a lake. ;)

[Anathema]

Hard to say.

I'm 90% sure that in GEoD, LetoII and Malky were having a conversation about this too (in a flashback)

I'll try to look it up.

[Edric O]

I forget, do the inhabitants of Gethen not use any projectile or thrown weapons?

One progression might be from spear/arrow to missile to, eventually, vehicle for carrying objects or passengers.

They do use firearms, and presumably any intelligent creature would be aware of the fact that you can make heavier-than-air objects (such as stones) fly by throwing them; so they would always have inspiration for projectile-launching devices, whether as weapons or otherwise.

But self-powered flight is a rather different matter... I think.

I suppose a civilization could arise during a period when there were no flying creatures on the planet in question, but when you look back over the history of life on Earth, there have been wing

[Caid Ivik]

Who tried to go with a car trough a field knows, that the idea of floating over terrain obstacles isn't as unnatural as it seems to be...but also, the first widely known flying machine was a heated baloon, which doesn't reflect any bird-flying mechanism (in fact winged aircraft became a successful idea when the inventors ceased to follow the "natural" idea of an ornitopther).

I think important is to have the word "to fly" itself, but primarily you need an idea of open space. If their senses can perceive large distances, they can think also of means how to cross them. I read a story about a guy from a forest tribe in Kongo, who went with an American to the steppe and he thought of buffalos in distance they were insects. Such tribe would have problems in aviatics.

With aquatic civilizations I disagree, they can still improve much in hydraulics, harnessing underwater streams or geothermal energy and other mechanical wonders, which we, dry-leggers, can't even imagine ;)

[GhostHunter]

See that's the thing, I think if we had any major influence around us to really start exploring and taking advantage of the sea besides simply food, then we might actually be more involved with it, or hell, maybe living underwater to some degree

[SandChigger]

With aquatic civilizations I disagree, they can still improve much in hydraulics, harnessing underwater streams or geothermal energy and other mechanical wonders, which we, dry-leggers, can't even imagine ;)

What would those "mechanical wonders" be constructed of?

That was Edric O's point: without fire, no metal implements.

[Anathema]

Aztecs.

[SandChigger]

We are playing Jeopardy? OK....

Who were the native Americans who built an advanced civilization in central Mexico that was later conquered by the Spanish?

Seriously...your point was...???

[Caid Ivik]

I think the point was that Aztecs were quite civilized without using much metal all...

[SandChigger]

Yeah.

And they built some pretty impressive air- and space-ships, didn't they?

[Egeides]

Life tends to adapt to each environment available to it. Humans tend to be inspired and adapt their surroundings from what they see of those lively little ones around. So I guess humans tend to develop flying or else in a way or other, all naturally.

Mesoamericans going with (toy) carts but no further use for wheels is surprising. It is said that they didn't have cart-pulling animals (www.precolumbianwheels.com). I guess there still was some reason to develop it in some way but the thinking couldn't be as quick and easy from there (like these funeral "toys" or some sledges with rollers).

[SandChigger]

Begs the question of how they hauled the stone for their temples and other building, huh?

I believe they made slaves of war captives, right? (The ones they didn't sacrifice, I mean.) Maybe they didn't need cart-pulling animals?

[Edric O]

Speaking of cart-pulling animals, that's an interesting way to generalize the initial question of this topic: are there any kinds of animals - not necessarily birds - whose existence is vital to the development of a spacefaring civilization?

Birds are useful as inspiration for flying machines. The point was made that humans would have probably developed flying machines anyway, with or without animal inspiration, as long as they were aware that something can fly. Even if the flying object is just a stone that you threw in the air.

But what about animals that contributed to civilization not through inspiration, but through being domesticated and providing a means of transport or a source of energy? Are any of them vital to the development of a spacefaring civilization? Suppose the mesoamericans were alone on the planet...

[Khan]

I'd put the horse quite high up the list.

[SandChigger]

Horse, water buffalo and ox, elephant. Anything else?

But would they really be <b>vital</b> to getting, eventually, into space?

Were animals ever used in any significant way as a power source in smelting and forging activities? Production of electricity? Fuel production?

I'm finding it hard to see how any of them could be considered vital. :(

[Caid Ivik]

Speaking of cart-pulling animals, that's an interesting way to generalize the initial question of this topic: are there any kinds of animals - not necessarily birds - whose existence is vital to the development of a spacefaring civilization?

Birds are useful as inspiration for flying machines. The point was made that humans would have probably developed flying machines anyway, with or without animal inspiration, as long as they were aware that something can fly. Even if the flying object is just a stone that you threw in the air.

But what about animals that contributed to civilization not through inspiration, but through being domesticated and providing a means of transport or a source of energy? Are any of them vital to the development of a spacefaring civilization? Suppose the mesoamericans were alone on the planet...

Rockets seem to be quite an original (without freudian analyses) design. Use of animals in space-faring seems to be limited for experiments, like poor Laika...

[TMA_1]

I have heard of her (this author) before, and the story sounds really cool.

usually I like science fiction that has that kind of thought experimentation. the "whoa, never thought of that before" kind of moments. heh

[The_Sadukar]

Birds are useful as inspiration for flying machines. The point was made that humans would have probably developed flying machines anyway, with or without animal inspiration, as long as they were aware that something can fly. Even if the flying object is just a stone that you threw in the air.

But as you yourself said, then Self-powered flight and thrown stones are two different things entirely- You could, perhaps, devise the rocket based on experiences with bows and arrows.... and then devise true aircraft based on the rocket...

I have managed to defeat my own argument :P

[Anathema]

Here's a different idea: Aquatic creatures, no matter how intelligent, could never create civilizations because their environment does not allow them to use fire. Discuss. :)

Just curious Edric, did you come across this one when reading Foundation and Earth?