Does anyone here have an interest in chemistry?

[Mihail]

I can't say that I'm heavily into theoretical stuff - in fact, I'm horrible at it, big chance that I'm the worst in my class. BUT, I have lately become very interested in practical chemistry. Namely, organic chemistry - extractions from plants, etc. This is due to my interest in psychotropic plants and the psychedelic drugs that can be made from them. I'm not talking about synthesizing LSD - although that would be nice - but things like extracting mescaline from cactii and DMT from DMT-containing plants.

I was just wondering if anyone else here shared an interest in chemistry, so that maybe they could give me a few pointers or advice if I'm stuck on some sort of terminology and stuff like that.

Dante...? I know you're pretty knowledgeable about biology, do you maybe know something(anything!) about chemistry? Since I'm very green to it, and would appreciate any quirks/things that I should know. :)

[lowzeewee]

I take it as a subject right now but I am pathetic at it. I can understand sufficiently but I have trouble applying what I learnt. I've finally stopped failing it, but now am trying to go beyond that.

[gunner154]

I've taken it for the A levels, and it's not very easy.

Organic chemistry? You need good memory, like Biology.

[Dante]

It's not a very specific question. Most matters of terminology and usually method can be looked up in textbooks or online. Still. As far as experience goes I can only repeat my own.

1- As you progress through chemistry qualifications, it becomes less about explosions and more about atoms. Sooner or later, though it can take a few years, it is almost exclusively mathematics.

2- Practical biology is the way to go if you want to work with natural substances or turn naturally occuring materials into a useful product. Biotechnology is the phrase that springs to mind.

3- Have a plan. Nobody can know everything, and scientists tend toward specialisation. If you want to work with plants, head for botany courses. Animals, zoology. The former would be more useful for the work you touched on, I expect. Not that you need to have everything planned out, but a rough idea would help. Certainly it would have helped me...

4- If you want to work in pharmaceuticals, that's a whole different ballgame. Medicine and its ilk are not pretty careers, not pretty at all.

[Mihail]

Okay, thanks for the information. I'm not planning in pursuing a career in aforementioned subjects, but rather having it as a hobby. In any case, though, I'm grateful for your advice. If I can ask, what are you leaning towards, career-wise?  :)

[gunner154]

Engineering, Physics, Economics.

[Dante]

Zoology.

And you may have difficulty keeping that as a hobby. Most of the interesting things are either illegal, boring, or require reasonably expensive equipment.

Sometimes all three.

[Mihail]

Well... DMT is illegal. It's a very powerful psychadelic, and since psychedelics interest me, I'd at least like to be able to acquire/extract it...

[Dante]

And this is the exact point when I distance myself from the subject.  :)

Bye now.

[Mihail]

Bye. :)

[Mihail]

Dante, I'll take the opportunity while this thread is unlocked to ask you a question(since you've blocked my PMs from me) - I feel that you have an aversion or dislike for psychedelics. Why is that? I realise that you've distanced yourself from the topic, but no harm can come from asking... :)

[Dante]

I publically dissociate myself from illegality.

That and I feel that anyone who needs drugs like that just isn't trying hard enough.

[Mihail]

I can understand the former statement, but when did I ever say that I needed drugs?  ???

I have no first-hand experience with hard drugs like amphetamines or opiates or substances of that ilk, but psychadelics are very enjoyable and I believe that they have great potential for encouraging spiritual/psychological growth or healing, which many testaments and studies confirm(ibogaine, for example, has vast unexplored potential as a drug that just flat out stops withdrawal symptoms in addicts and stops the addictions to their drugs of choice totally, in on study with alcoholics who were given LSD, 45% afterwards heavily cut back or quit their drinking totally). But that's just a sidenote - humans are, after all, hedonistic creatures. Why do you play computer games? Why do humans have sex for pleasure, and not just for reproduction? It's because it feels good. And I certainly think that psychadelics are a much better variant than alcohol or tobacco or any of the multitude of prescription drugs.

But, I realise that I too am taking things for granted. I don't know if you drink or smoke, but in any case, I'm willing to bet you indulge in some hedonistic activity that you don't need, but would be hard pressed to stop doing. :)

[Dante]

I have better things to be doing than arguing this...

I play games. Outside stimulus that is enjoyable. Others take drugs, directly stimulating various biological processes that eventually lead to 'enjoyment.' Basically they skip out the middleman and move straight to the pleasure button. This to me seems... cheap. Like messing with the settings of a game because you can't get past level 4.

That and I have very little tolerance for escapism characterised by substance abuse.

[Mihail]

So don't argue this, I'm not forcing you to, just trying to get a semi-serious discussion going. :)

About the "cheating" - you can call me stupid(and I have a feeling you might ;) ), but I feel that everything on this Earth has been put on it for a purpose. Not by God, or any of that jazz, but I just feel that the Earth - or rather, "Mother Nature" is a sentient or semi-sentient being. If banisteriopsis capii contains an alkaloid that makes a person "trip", and in the process of tripping perhaps gain some divine insight that makes him a more peaceful or accepting or balanced person, or maybe just gets pleasure from it, then good for him, and that banisteriopsis capii evolved for that reason(perhaps among others).

And it is(here I am speaking from personal experience) very hard to "abuse" psychadelics. They give you no cravings, are not addictive(indeed, who would want to be potentially dissecting their soul and mind every single day?), do not cause any physical harm, and the only risk of psychological harm they can cause is triggering a latent mental illness or psychological syndrome. The keywords are "abuse" and "use". You never hear about heroin users, do you? You only hear about heroin addicts, or abusers. That is because heroin users lead normal lives, indulging every once in a while in a substance that makes them feel good. But I'm getting off-topic here. What I'm saying is that you would have to try pretty hard to abuse psychadelics without some  negative repercussions, like a bad trip that would shatter your perception of the world. And I haven't personally experienced this, but almost every person that I've talked to on the net or in person who use or used psychadelic drugs didn't do it as escapism - most said that it helped them think harder about their problems and face them.

[Dunenewt]

Let's not stray into the realms of PRP.

[gunner154]

You aren't suggesting that LSD isn't addictive, are you?

[Mihail]

You aren't suggesting that LSD isn't addictive, are you?

I certainly am saying just that. LSD isn't addictive, no matter what AboveTheInfluence-type sites or sources may say. It certainly doesn't cause any psychological or physical addictions, and I can give you sources. I admit, though, that people can get a bit carried away or obsess about it. After I first tried it, I was very deeply awed and certainly wanted to use it again, but that fades after a few days.

And if need be, the topic can be split and moved to PRP, at least the parts that belong in PRP.

Just a quick one:

LSD is not considered addictive, in that its users do not exhibit the medical community's commonly accepted definitions of addiction and physical dependence. Rapid tolerance build-up prevents regular use, and there is cross-tolerance shown between LSD, mescaline[24] and psilocybin.[25] This tolerance diminishes after a few days without use and is probably caused by downregulation of 5-HT2A receptors in the brain.

[gunner154]

Interesting. Perhaps we have been made to believe that all drugs are addictive. I wouldn't want to draw a distinction between psychological or physical addictions if any when determining the appropriate legality of any of the drugs, however.

I have read that such drugs have been known to give us a great deal of interesting music from the 60s aka Psychedelic Rock.

[Mihail]

We certainly have. Like I said, who would want - or stay sane - while tripping every day for 6 or more hours? It's hard to describe tripping to someone who hasn't experienced it, but it isn't like opiates or stimulants - it doesn't make you want to do more and more and more immediately afterwards. I know I sound like a conspiracy nut, but the government wants the general populace kept under tight control and wants them to believe what they want them to believe.

The whole history is hard to retell here, in fact it's nigh-impossible, but if you want a very good and detailed read on the social history of drugs find an e-book of Terrence McKenna's Food of the Gods. I loved it. The basic premise is that a great deal of human culture exists thanks to psychadelics - McKenna says that religions like Hinduism(which honor cows - "magic" mushrooms grow very well on cow's dung!) could be based partly or even totally on psychadelics, and that monotheistic religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam hijacked that culture, with the aid of a horrible drug that we all know and love - alcohol! Because not one ancient, pagan religion, and especially none that used psychadelic or psychotropic drugs, had only one supreme deity - they had godesses and gods and all sorts of yummy stuff. Women, although they were not necessarily equal, were revered in those religions because those religions had feminine godesses. Then come the Big Three. In those three religions, God has no mother, no daughter, no sister, indeed - no siblings, no parents. Women were degraded by being told that the "original" woman, Eve, brought sin to Earth(In Christianity, of course, but just tweak it a little bit and you have pretty much the same thing for Islam, about Judaism I'm not very sure, though). Alcohol just sped it up and empowered it. Alcohol reinforces a person's ego, makes them feel powerful or better than others, encourages the "dominator" attitude in men towards women. But psychadelics break down these barriers, and one way or the other, convince or show people that everyone is equal on this world, that we are all One, so to speak. Of course, in modern times these attitudes to women have changed, and noone dares voice ideas like this(at least not publicly), but I shudder to think what humanity could have achieved without Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and alcohol.

Anyway, just my little rant.

[gunner154]

Your mentioning of Christianity, Islam and Judaism with alcohol in the same breath made me chuckle ;D I would place my bets on psychedelic drugs being incoporated directly into religious practice if likely. In any case, I'm no expert. Leave it to them! :P

[Mihail]

Maybe they were in the beginning, but I feel it's been turned into something much more sinister over the years.

And that's the thing - the experts don't always have to be right. Probably aren't. So as cliche as it sounds, but - think for yourself, without this sort of defeatist attitude.  :)

[Anathema]

You do realize that some former LSD users have sporadic throwbacks to bad trips, decades after they stopped using?

[Mihail]

Yes, but emphasis on some and sporadic. The number of people who have such flashbacks is really quite low, as are the chances of flashbacks persisting for decades, and usually accompany users who really abused the drug. In any case, it won't kill you, and it doesn't last long.

[Andrew]

In any case, it won't kill you, and it doesn't last long.

I'm sure someone is driving and has a flashback. That would be fun.