Black-focused school in Toronto, Canada --> segregation?

[Tatar Khan]

http://www.thestar.com/article/297001

Great now we have black focused schools. OK the first time I heard the idea, i though it would not even fly. But now thanks to the black community in Toronto the proposal was passed.

The idea is based that n the fact that schools are white focused (go figure). I still don't know how can math, physics, chemistry, biology can be made black focused or white focused or purple focused for that case.

So they decided to create black focused school, thus solving the problem of under achievement in black kids that was observed statistically. The idea that school would have African culture focus in it. So as far as I see it they are hoping that African culture would somehow inspire Canadian born black kids.

I know the school board is desperate but I don't think the schools are the problem here. Parents are also part of the problem and their lack of help in education of children. I often see parents who think that schools are what should do the whole educating for them.

Oh, a point just was brought up for me. The black focused schools would soon lead to separation of the different parts of the city based on colour, since I don't believe that too many non-black students would want to go to black focused schools. Great! So far Toronto avoided this type of the problem that is present in US where many cities are clearly divided in black and white areas.

Well I hope it will fail, I am sure it would not work out and 3 years down the line after opening they would decide to shut it down and 5 years later that owuld be done. However the damage would not be undone that easily.

[Acriku]

We have some high schools that just happen to be almost entirely made up of black people around here in Orlando (Evans, Jones [the high school Wesley Snipes graduated from]). I really don't see the point in making a place of education centered around something as trivial as race. Especially to simply celebrate a common history (I don't see the point in high schools centered on Scottish heritage either, not including our choice of wear for men ;)). At this point in history, racial exclusion/inclusion should be questioned without even thinking. Sadly, we're not that evolved societally :(

[Caid Ivik]

race isn't trivial for children; they follow senses more than reason

[gunner154]

Race differences seem to be more on senses than reason anyway.

[Tatar Khan]

The most shocking thing about this is that it is the black parents who pushing for this. Apparently the idea is based on the fact that there are such schools already in US that are showing better performance among the students. They also say that there are North American focused schools (most likely on reserves) and gay and lesbian focused schools (never heard of them). Man I would wish that article writers would cite the information they are putting out specifically to those facts that are given.

[MrFlibble]

Well, what can I say, people seem to enjoy fooling around with potentially dangerous concepts... sadly they tend to create unstable situations all to often.

[Edric O]

It's amazing how far people will go to ignore simple answers that are staring them in the face.

Why are black children statistically less successful in school than white children? Because black children are much more likely to come from poor and disadvantaged communities. That's all there is to it. The problem is not racial, but economic. Poor children in general are disadvantaged, and blacks are overrepresented among the population of poor children. The solution is to tackle the causes of poverty and to seek ways of improving the domestic environment that these children grow up in. For example, the state could take measures to reduce the number of single-parent families, or it could increase the number of cheap or free daycare centres so that these children don't spend all day at home watching TV, and so on and so forth.

But that would require the government to admit that poverty and economic inequality are real problems, which it does not wish to do. So instead of useful social programs, we have this idiotic idea about "black-focused schools," as if black children are supposed to be somehow genetically programmed to be interested in schoolwork related to a continent they've never even visited. It's not just stupid, it is not just a form of segregation, but it is in fact based on completely racist assumptions.

Education must be free and equal for all. Special schools for special groups of people have a history of cutting off those groups from society, giving them an education that is either far better or far worse than that received by everyone else, and thereby turning them into either a ruling class or an underclass (in the case of black people it has always been an underclass) with little or no social mobility.

"Black-focused schools" will only promote racism and serve to divide society.

[nemafakei]

"The problem is not racial, but economic."

This has an impact, though. Working-class black boys, in particular, have/are met with lower expectations, and this affects acheivement. Solving the economic problems would, after a time delay when people stop being unconsciously racist, solve the problems. Segregated schools might boost performance in an ideal situation, by creating an environment where each child isn't just "that coloured one", but an individual with their own needs. However, segregation quickly leads to a lot of nastiness when funding is concerned (though the mechanisms for preferential funding are now much more subtle than they used to be), and is hugely divisive where integration is concerned.

The fact is that unless the majority of schools become better and more supportive of black children, then black parents will quite understandably continue prefer schools were other black children do thrive: the solution requires massive improvements to the schooling system, on the way to acheiving a much fairer economic structure.

L(B)G(T) focussed schools might be an interesting one, given the massive amount of prejudice LBGT children suffer in schools (something often condoned and almost never prevented by teachers), though I've never heard of any of these schools either, and I would be very surprised if they do exist, especially given the fact that they'd e dependent on parents accepting their children's orientation (/gender identitiy) from wuite early on!

[gunner154]

The "an individual with their own needs" culture, without the "coloured one" part, would be a false image altogether. When thrown back to the real world, only a few would be able to shine with the specialised education. The remaining promising few might find themselves in their crevices again when it comes to adapting again. Tapping on that knowledge in such a queer (relatively) environment can be a big challenge for the majority (of people in general).

Quick fix solutions like these would not really bring you many promising long term results, and it would take ages to actually notice anything. Wicked, eh?

[Sneakgab]

''black parents will quite understandably continue prefer schools were other black children do thrive''

Assuming their children thrive in said schools, which seems unlikely.

''This has an impact, though. Working-class black boys, in particular, have/are met with lower expectations, and this affects acheivement. Solving the economic problems would, after a time delay when people stop being unconsciously racist, solve the problems''

Are you saying that they have lower expectations because these expectations are placed on them by unconciously racist people? I'm not really sure how much rascism is still a problem anymore. Here in SA apartheid ended not even 2 decades ago, and though we often hear the news pushing rascism I get the general feeling that it's not much of an issue anymore, especially with the goverment constantly pushing advantages for africans (euphemism used to describe black people in SA, in case that confuses anyone) along with the whole black qoute thing. Bleh... not really sure about all that though.

The point though, is that the whole african discrimination thing officialy (ie: laws put in place against slave use and outright discrimination and the like) ended many decades ago for the states. I'm assuming Canada followed form here. Of course, an official end to racial discrimination does not not immediately translate into an actual end to racial discrimination... but... it has been a while right?

Anyway, wouldn't education segregation increase both feelings of unconcious rascism and inferiority caused by them? Are you perhaps suggesting that if these african children don't come into contact with the unconciously rascist they will not be affected by their attitudes?

''Segregated schools might boost performance in an ideal situation, by creating an environment where each child isn't just "that coloured one", but an individual with their own needs''

But wouldn't being slotted into a ''black school'' reinforce these children's feelings of being those ''black kids''? They would be there because they are black, and would they not be reminded of that each and every day?

An interesting pyschological scenario perhaps.

''L(B)G(T) focussed schools might be an interesting one, given the massive amount of prejudice LBGT children suffer in schools (something often condoned and almost never prevented by teachers), though I've never heard of any of these schools either, and I would be very surprised if they do exist, especially given the fact that they'd e dependent on parents accepting their children's orientation (/gender identitiy) from wuite early on! ''

''L(B)G(T)''?, what does that mean?

Well, for now I agree with all of that. Prejudice and feelings of inferiority are a much more serious matter amongst these groups. I also agree that such schools would likely never be put in place and their success would be even rarer due to close-minded parents. They would almost certainlt be restricted to high school though, as many have hardly developed any sense of sexuality before then. I know I would be most displeased being shoved into a homosexual school at the slightest misconstrued hint lol.

However, wouldn't the famed promiscuity of these groups be troublesome? Atleast they don't have to worry about teenage pregnancies... j/k of course. Not sure if such humour is crossing the line and I should feel guilty about it.

Bleh. Here in SA the govt ''solved'' the problem by handing all the africans free tickets to jobs of all varieties. This just results in unqualified people probably wishing they were qualified holding jobs and causing chaos. Unfortunately the Govt here is also unable to admit the shortcomings of an overly capitalistic system, and has done little to improve the education system. In fact, they've done worse, with meaningless adjustments to the system disrupting the education of learners. Just avoiding the issue as such corrupt people tend to do (our govt is quite famous for it's corruption, lol). It was only recently that public school teachers held a (atleast, don't remember the actual duration) month long strike for a meager 5% raise (it was something to that effect) on an already meager salary. I think it would have amounted to like an additional 10R a day or something per a teacher, which is about 1.66 US$. The hope was that students going without teachers for a month shortly before final exams would get the govt to concede, but alas, there was no raise and the students and teachers suffered.

Seeing as how most of our skilled personnel are fleeing the country because (being white) they have little job security and/or futures and are terrified of the rampant crime, it REALLY seems like the country could have used that education. Oh well.

Definetly not much hope with Jacob Zuma as our new president. ''Hand me my machine gun!!!!''(qoute from Zuma on day of de facto election of country's president and official election of president of ANC).

It's hard to be simultaneously releastic and not a doom sayer these days... *sigh*

[Andrew]

Yes in Canada it is illegal to discriminate based upon religion, race, age, sex and several other things.

Here's a full list

So I think a good question would be what if non black people want to attend this school? It would definitely be illegal to not allow a white person to attend. I guess it would be a "black" focused school, but anyone could attend.

Then a white person could complain that they are discriminating against non blacks and start the lawsuits. Maybe black people would get preferential treatment over non blacks at the black schools?

What about hiring processes? This would be a complete nightmare. If a non black person is not hired they will file a complaint. How could a black focused school fairly hire teachers?

[Sneakgab]

I suppose ''black-focused'' does not necessarily mean non-black excluding.

''What about hiring processes? This would be a complete nightmare. If a non black person is not hired they will file a complaint. How could a black focused school fairly hire teachers?''

Is it illegal to dismiss somebody on terms of practicality that relate to their race or sex? If somebody was hiring a prostitute to service young women would it be illegal to refuse employing a woman on the grounds that her tools are simply insufficient? I suppose strictly speaking a woman CAN have male genitalia and features whilst strictly remaining a woman via her genes. So the issue here is simply of qualities that are typically not possesed by a woman.

Yet having black skin colour is the definition of being black right? Such skin colour could possibly benefit the students of said teacher by making them feel ''right at home'' (just an example and not neccesarily true.So here the very defining characteristic of being black is an issue and becomes a matter of practicality right?

And so I ask again for clarity: Is it illegal to refuse employing someone on the grounds of racial, sexual, e.t.c practicality?

[nemafakei]

"''L(B)G(T)''?, what does that mean?"

Well, the previous post referred to lesbian and gay schools (hence L and G), but I reckoned the concept could also apply bi and trans people (hence B and T in brackets), as the prejudice they suffer is essentially one and the same.

"Are you saying that they have lower expectations because these expectations are placed on them by unconciously racist people? I'm not really sure how much rascism is still a problem anymore."

Racism is definitely built into our culture and people don't suddenly stop being racist when they realise it's unreasonable. It's not just propogated through racist institutions, but through culture. Victims of Police random stops, whenever each new cleverclogs thinks they'd be a neat idea, is one example*. It's not explicit racism, and you could well argue that sexism is now a more powerful force in many Western cultures than racism, but it's there. Prejudice is not simply a bad/good thing, either, it's about fitting people into roles.

"Anyway, wouldn't education segregation increase both feelings of unconcious rascism and inferiority caused by them?"

Yes.

"Are you perhaps suggesting that if these african children don't come into contact with the unconciously rascist they will not be affected by their attitudes?"

Not really, I'm explaining why segregated schools have in certain instances appeared to have worked, and I'm explaining why it is that certain black parents are in favour of the idea. (Of course, SA is different, where you have a black majority, not to mention the distinctions therein).

I'm not in favour of segregated schools, based on race, gender, sexuality, class or creed: I'm arguing against them, and I'm trying to make a constructive suggestion on how to make them redundant: namely make the general standard of all schools welcoming and supported places for children to develop and define who they are. I'm willing to concede that accommodating, rather than challenging prejudice, can, in certain instances have temporary successes, but the overall problems remain.

* Here's another example of unconscious prejudice: "However, wouldn't the famed promiscuity of these groups be troublesome?" - Straight people are promiscuous, too, it's just that heteronormative culture defines LBG people by their sexuality, and because non-promiscuous LBG people are less likely to be known to be LBG and hence may just be counted on the 'non-gay' column in people's minds. Purely anecdotally, I wouldn't describe any of the LBG people I know as promiscuous, but I might well apply that label to a few heterosexual friends.

[Andrew]

It is very tricky to dismiss someone based upon practicality.

A better example would be hiring a 25 year old strong male, to lift heavy boxes at work, compared to hiring a 60 year old weak woman. You cannot dismiss the 60 year old lady simply because of sex and age, it would have to be because they can not physically lift the box, even though the job regularly requires it. Although, the employer would have to make sure it would be impossible to accommodate the 60 year old (say, buy a forklift or something to aid them). Because this could fall under the disability section.

Same for if I am working somewhere, then become handicapped in some way, it is difficult for them to fire me. They would have to do everything possible to accommodate me. And if it is impossible to do so, then they could fire me (and I would go on disability welfare, since I cannot work, until I can find a job that accommodates my disability).

Take for example recently, a store owner put up a sign "no one under the age of 19 allowed in without parents present", and the owner also put up a sign "No teens" or something to that effect. It was a "dollar store" (retail). The reason for doing this was because owners said teens were stealing and harrasing customers during lunch hour during school hours (this has been a problem for years in the community)

Teenagers complained and said they would take it to human rights commission. Owner takes down sign because he knew he would lose if it went to Human rights commission, and also for bad publicity. This is an example of owner discriminating against customers because of age.

There is also intentional vs unintentional discrimination. Best example for that would be old buildings that are not wheelchair accessible (no ramp). Wheelchair people are allowed into the building, but it is impossible for them to get into it. These individuals are faced with an unfair disadvantage due to the protected characteristics of physical disability. :P

EDIT:

Employers, service providers and property owners must accommodate the needs of individuals or groups protected by the Human Rights Act to the point of “undue hardship.”

And so I ask again for clarity: Is it illegal to refuse employing someone on the grounds of racial, sexual, e.t.c practicality?

Simple answer is that it is illegal to refuse to hire someone based upon all those grounds.

Another example is recently here a female minister was fired. She said it was because she was a female. HRC agreed with her and the church had to pay her lots of money.

In the USA there are examples of a male not getting a job at Hooters because he was male, even though he had all the other necessary qualifications.

[nemafakei]

There are certain exceptions in the UK at least, e.g. a women's rape crisis centre would be exempt.

The practicalities of the legislation as a whole that Andrew mentioned is another matter, and is another byproduct of the contradictions of capitalism.

[Tatar Khan]

Actually i think they can refuse teachers who are not black from teaching in such a school.

It would be same as a white person being refused a job at chinese food restaurant. The owner could refuse because the theme of the restaurant is chinese and so employees should also be chinese to keep  the theme of the restaurant. i know this is part of the legislation to which Andrew referred to. So same with black-focused school.

I heard that this idea ws truck down by the trustees of TDSB, based on their conversations witht eh representatives of Toronto's infamous Jane&Finch community.

[Sneakgab]

Thanks for awnsering my question filled post.

''Here's another example of unconscious prejudice: "However, wouldn't the famed promiscuity of these groups be troublesome?" - Straight people are promiscuous, too, it's just that heteronormative culture defines LBG people by their sexuality, and because non-promiscuous LBG people are less likely to be known to be LBG and hence may just be counted on the 'non-gay' column in people's minds. Purely anecdotally, I wouldn't describe any of the LBG people I know as promiscuous, but I might well apply that label to a few heterosexual friends.''

Of course you realize that I do not actually consider LBGT (letters, bacon , tomato, gay sandwich?. lol) indivuals to generally be more promiscous than straight people right?

You probably already know this, and just chose to make an example of unconcious prejudice.

Hmm, for a person to be known as LG, they would have to be promiscous as they would otherwise be assumed heterosexual. Hence all LG people known to be LG are promiscous. Amusing.

''Are you saying that they have lower expectations because these expectations are placed on them by unconciously racist people? I'm not really sure how much rascism is still a problem anymore."

''Racism is definitely built into our culture and people don't suddenly stop being racist when they realise it's unreasonable. ''

When will people stop being rascist then? Are you saying that even though the rascists you are familiar with often realize the absurdity of their discrimination, they are unable to part with it and pursue it regardless?

I guess some people like to stubbornly hold onto certain things even if said things are useless to them.

''Not really, I'm explaining why segregated schools have in certain instances appeared to have worked, and I'm explaining why it is that certain black parents are in favour of the idea. (Of course, SA is different, where you have a black majority, not to mention the distinctions therein).''

Well, if the schools have (appeared, atleast) to have worked then there is no mystery concerning the parents favoring them. I thought these schools were still in the experimental stage.

Of course it is important to define what we mean by ''worked''. The schools may increase the students progression, but if this comes at the cost of their happiness and sense of identity then one could see them as less of an improvement. Basically a sacrifice for the sake of more effective workers. In the long run it might be best, who knows?

''I'm not in favour of segregated schools, based on race, gender, sexuality, class or creed: I'm arguing against them, and I'm trying to make a constructive suggestion on how to make them redundant: namely make the general standard of all schools welcoming and supported places for children to develop and define who they are. I'm willing to concede that accommodating, rather than challenging prejudice, can, in certain instances have temporary successes, but the overall problems remain.''

To make the schools welcoming it would be necessary to change the culture and attitudes of the children and teachers at the school. I'm not sure about the viability of this, but I know what the pessimist (grown from being unable to convince fools that the sky is blue) inside me thinks though:D. What do you think of the situation where you live? Is it possible to get people to change or would it be best to enjoy these ''temporary successes''. Of course the temporary methods (ie: black focused schools) mentioned here might worsen things in the long run.

[Andrew]

Actually i think they can refuse teachers who are not black from teaching in such a school.

It would be same as a white person being refused a job at chinese food restaurant. The owner could refuse because the theme of the restaurant is chinese and so employees should also be chinese to keep  the theme of the restaurant. i know this is part of the legislation to which Andrew referred to. So same with black-focused school.

I heard that this idea ws truck down by the trustees of TDSB, based on their conversations witht eh representatives of Toronto's infamous Jane&Finch community.

I'm pretty sure it is still illegal to not hire people based upon race. Whether or not the "theme" of the business or organization is race oriented.

[Anathema]

It annoys me when the government declares that a minority can do something wich the majority (white, protestants, you get the idea) cannot. Can you imagine Toronto approving of a school who explicitly states it endeavours to teach mainly about white, European history? If most schools are de facto already like that (wich I don't buy) you should work on that instead of adding to it by making the problem racially symetric.

The article says that it won't actually exclude non-blacks, but that seems like an empty statement- I don't figure that many white (or Asians or Latinos for that matter) are going to send their kids to a school where they focus on teaching about how great such African civilizations like Timbuktu, Nubia or ancient Zimbabwe were and where they stress how far ahead of non-Africans they were.

I'm sorry to say it, but in the great picture sub-Saharan Africa didn't amount to much in the last 1,000 years or so. That doesn't reflect bad on black people just as it doesn't reflect good on white people that they once practicly ruled the planet. It was a long time ago and it works to noone's credit. Education should be color blind, in the case of history that means you focus on important events and civilizations wich actually were influential; kids should spend more time learning about Egypt, China, the Roman empire or the colonial empires than they should about obscure black civilizations that may or may not have been advanced, but wich didn't impact world history to a meaninful degree.

[nemafakei]

"Can you imagine Toronto approving of a school who explicitly states it endeavours to teach mainly about white, European history?"

No, but I bet most of them *do* teach mainly about white, European history.

Sneakgab:

"You probably already know this, and just chose to make an example of unconcious prejudice."

Wasn't sure, but it's sadly a common enough sentiment.

"When will people stop being rascist then?"

Come the revolution, I believe is the phrase. Seriously, there are still massive material conditions fuelling racism, e.g. in the west because black people tend to be working class.

"Are you saying that even though the rascists you are familiar with often realize the absurdity of their discrimination, they are unable to part with it and pursue it regardless?"

No, I'm saying people don't notice when they're being discriminatory. People don't notice that they talk to men and women differently, that they behave in a different way to people of different skin colour, that they make implicit and unfounded assumptions based on prejudice all the time, because it's all going on in the subconscious.

"I thought these schools were still in the experimental stage."

Dunno, I think the ones in Canada are, but I think it's been tried in the UK and 'worked'.

"it be best to enjoy these ''temporary successes''. Of course the temporary methods (ie: black focused schools) mentioned here might worsen things in the long run."

Precisely - the successes can only be temporary, as thet intensify racial division and help maintain prejudice. If they came at no cost I'd be all for temporary gains, but this is not such an instance.

[gunner154]

There's a difference between teaching about a culture, and teaching without it but with everybody being of one colour. Either way, both are laden with problems.

[Andrew]

They already have black history month... Martin Luther King day... black business initiatives... black business & professional association... black entertainment television... etc.

[nemafakei]

And do these actually work, or are they just tokenistic?

[Sneakgab]

BTW ''black-focused'' is a tad vauge. Does anyone know anything more specific about the methods and/or differences of these schools

[Anathema]

And do these actually work, or are they just tokenistic?

Define "work".