Fair or Unfair Criticism?

[Voodoo Daddy]

Hey Guys, I came across this on Wikipedia. I know it's a bit of a read, but I was wondering what your thoughts were, being as the members here generally regard Emperor as the best RTS game ever.

Here is what I think.

1- the clickfest- this has some merit. I often thought that if I could re do Emp, one thing I would do would be to add a button to "Dump" the cue, that is if you had say a bunch of sard's in production and needed sard elites you wouldn't have to right click 20 times.

2- I don't thing we play "against" the interface, but it could be made better.

3- No merit. like it says, "Rushes" worked well in WWII. It was called Blitzkrieg.

4- No merit. I don't think your build order is a flippant process.

5- Disposable Units. I think this has merit. In the real world no General wastes his resources, be they human or machine. If you want to see Emperor in a whole new light, try this. Sometimes my little group play "Squad wars" where you bump the money up and then build a certain pre-agreed upon number of all of your Houses and Sub Houses units. THEN YOU SELL YOUR BUILDINGS! This way you MUST preserve your units. It is "DO or DIE" with what you've got. This replaces PRODUCTION with STRATEGY. Also it is impossible to win by killing your opponents Spice.

6- I think this has merit.

Voodoo 

Criticism of gameplay

Because of their generally faster-paced nature (and in some cases a smaller learning curve), real-time strategy games have surpassed the popularity of turn-based strategy computer games.[15] In the past, a common criticism was to regard real-time strategy games as "cheap imitations" of turn-based strategy games, arguing that real-time strategy games had a tendency to devolve into "click-fests"[16][17][18], in which the player who was faster with the mouse generally won, because they could give orders to their units at a faster rate. The common retort is that success involves not just fast clicking but also the ability to make sound decisions under time pressure.[17]

The "clickfest" argument is also often voiced alongside a "button babysitting" criticism, which pointed out that a great deal of game time

[alchemi2]

Well I'm no expert but have played many RTS and Strategy games over the years both on computers, board and table top games.

RTS is what is and Emperor is probably the best version i have played (IMO)

I have seen players with more units lose to those with less because the player tried the mass rushing tactic rather than multi-skilling their units in combat.

We've all seen and know the importance and effectiveness of various units in different situations.

The wrong build order can cost you a game as can unit choice.

Managing spice resources brought a different angle and strategy to Emperor, you can't just churn out units without thought.

You can always play on a none spice map or change the starting cash limit.

The problem with most reviews is that the writer often only plays the single player game which in Emperor is totally different to on-line play.

I've seen the tactics on-line change massively over the years from sub house use and settings, someone writing a review now would have hugely different comments to some 10 years ago.

The idea behind the lack of a quick dump button for production of units or a fast counter add to units was to make players think about their BOs and actually adds to the strategy factor IMO as does the unit cap of 99.

The upgrading of units enhancing their abilities encourages players not to get them killed, afterall a level 3 Devastator is much better than a level 1.

Finally Fog of War can add massively to the strategy/tactics needed within the game although some would argue it adds to the luck factor.

[darkd3th]

Very interesting, I like the idea of playing on none spice maps for stragegy starrt with like 3-5k. Although it'd be a lot better if a better map could be made for those maps.

[alchemi2]

Well you can always play a spice map and agree no refineries at the start then you only have the initial amount of money and have to really think about what you build, both building and unit wise. Of course it depends on trust and makes it a limited game.

[desertway]

Non spice maps suck(IMO). The fact that I hate them is where my nick came from. I only play spice maps.

Without spice a weak player can choose atr which(IMO) has the strongest defensive capabilities.  They can build turrets and minos and just move at a very leisurely pace until they have massed a huge force. Spice makes you actually have to come off your rock. If you don't your opponent can cut off your money and in effect kill you.

I think we're a little off topic though.

I would have to agree with Alchemi over Voodoo on the "dumping" of units. It does make you think about what you are queuing up. You don't want to go hog wild queuing up units that are no good against what your opponent is producing.

As for the "clickfest", well, it really is. We are constantly clicking during the game. If you're not clicking, you're dying.

Rushes are indeed a not so widely used tactic. They were used allot in the days of clans. The fact is it is an effective way to gain an advantage in a game. They are not so commonly used anymore because most of the people want a game that lasts. And that isn't decided within the first 2 minutes.

I don't agree that your build process and unit choice is a "flippant" process. Most of us have spent a great deal of time working on our BO's and unit choices. That in itself shows that the original author doesn't have a clue about online play.

I would agree to a point that units are disposable. Lets face it, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. And I am very willing to break a few eggs. Or sacrifice a few units to gain an advantage. On the other hand I'm not willing to send units on a suicide mission if there is nothing substantial for me to gain.

[bob_fox]

I think the "click-fest" thing is true of most RTS games. You can be the best RTS strategist in the world, but, if you're slow, you'll still most likely get thumped by the average Joe - but not a newbee, mind you - if he's got quick fingers. And that's probably one of the biggest disadvantages RTS will always have when compared to TBS.

[Schorpie]

imo a 'click-fest' just makes the game interesting. U've got to micro ur units like hell to gain as much as possible advantage, but you've to know why ur clicking. Ur giving many orders at a very small period of time, for me that takes a lot of skill and concentration to do, there are also tactics involved in this. U've got to make the right clicks and not just click like a mindless chicken on the map.

At warcraft fe they measure ur apm, ur clicks in 1 minute. For a pro player it's around 250, for someone who hardly plays online it's about 20. I get about 100

[alchemi2]

Ah Desertway me old mate don't see you on-line much these days almost a Deluged for that.

Most computer games are Clickfests, like it or not.

Throwing men and equipment away happens in real life let alone games, World War one people!!!

Emperor makes you think about BOs and the units you use unlike a lot of other RTS games. you can lob load of massed troops to their death for no gain unless you use the right combos.

I agree Des the removal of Spice removes a skill element from the game, i actually believe that is what the none spicemap were for, Jules maybe able to shed light on that.

[Megashrap]

It's funny you guys mention the click factor. I have had this 3 dollar laser/optical mouse for around 5 yrs. now. I have abused the crap out of it playing emp, how it is still working I'll never know. Not to mention other games that are click needy that I have played.

Now the spice harvesting thing is a necessity. It doesn't in any way make the game any easier without it at all. You have to protect your spice and your refineries..and fight. Because no good player lets someone just harvest spice away without a worry. But I kinda agree with Des.. ATR would pwn in that sort of match. unless they are just a really terrible ATR player.

[bob_fox]

At warcraft fe they measure ur apm, ur clicks in 1 minute. For a pro player it's around 250, for someone who hardly plays online it's about 20. I get about 100

Sounds awful to have to click so much.

Most computer games are Clickfests, like it or not.

Not TBS games, though.

Actually, I'm not moaning about the fact that you sometimes have to be quick in RTS, but rather that clickling fast often seems to override strategic gameplay; but this is just a matter of opinion, I suppose.

BTW, I wonder which genre requires more clicks per minute: RTS or FPS?

[Voodoo Daddy]

Well, It's been interesting to read your thoughts. The thing that surprised me in the responses was Des's & Scar's opinion (if I'm reading it right) that in a game where you both built a set number of all your units, and then just fought with that, that Atreides would pwn! I was under the impression that the current thinking among the good players is that Hark is the true power in this game, with everything thing else being equal.

[alchemi2]

Atr is probably the most powerful with equal forces of tiered units.

Hark often relies on numbers and brute strength.

Ordos probably is the finesse house using its hit and run tactics and self repair mode.

I would have thought with players of equal skill and a set amount of cash Ordos would have the upper hand with deviators and lasertanks.

Of course the inclusion of subhouse units can swing the balance of power.

Why do people make the assumption that having to play quickly and multi task, means less strategy is involved, you can plan out a battle at your leisure but once in it quick decisions and reactions are needed even in real life, look at D-day or Market Garden months of planning and preparation but in the end instant decisions had to be made in the battles and quick actions be taken.

[mordusxxx]

well to throw my thoughts into this grinder. There are alot of things you must take into consideration when playing a game such as Emp, you cannot just think you will build massive amounts of units and throw them to your enemy and expect a win. There are reasons why we have a formation attack button on this game. Having such attack lets you know where and how you want your units to take on your opponent. If you think about it, how many times have you used a certain amount of units, and just kept demolishing the enemy, because you 1. place them in such a way that you render your enemies useless,2. The type of unit is much stronger then the ones your facing,and 3. you place your units in formation in such a way that your tanks and infantry protect each other. I'm not saying i can kill fifty buzzsaws and forty sards with two minos, but if the situation was me on top of a rock or with a carryall and he had no air units, i could most likely kill half his army. And the whole clicking thing, ive went through four mouses in the last five years... lol

[desertway]

Voodoo I wasn't referring to a set # of units. I was referring to the set amount of money. The other houses have the initial advantage because they can make stronger units in the beginning. This is negated because atreides can sit in their base and put up turrets. The Atr machine gun turret is more versatile than either of the other 2 houses initial turret. It works well on mech units and infantry. This allows them the time to sit and tech up without fear of running out of money. Now if tey had to go mine for spice...they wouldn't be able to just sit and defend with turrets. They would have to come out and do battle. This is my opinion. I know there are guys like Appo who can take a few Atr units and march on some1's base. This isn't the norm. It's the exception.

[Dunenewt]

Just a note on your criticisms of the game.  I was developing a mod which addressed these issues.  As well as changing a few of the sides (House Corrino with the Sardaukar replacing Ordos was one), I changed the way the tech tree worked, which made early game rushes less likely, and I also changed many of the stats to increase the usefulness of infantry, and other general changes to reduce the effectiveness of rushes.  Anyone got any tips on how to do that?

[alchemi2]

Well in opinion emperor is well balanced and often its the sub house that make the difference.

Atr turrets make up for their other weaknesses at the start, but to me it's what the player does with the units that makes the difference. Their ability to use units in innovative ways that makes the transition from campaign/skirmish play to online gaming so hard or challenging.

[Dunenewt]

So the subhouses are not balanced then?  I pretty much gathered that, which is why in my mod I gave Tleilaxu and Guild more powerful units.  I also gave each subhouse their own turret and aerial unit.

[gunner154]

Infantry are slow and fragile. While an artillery shell should knock them out instantly, most weapons should be having some difficulty hitting infantry as compared to hitting vehicles. However, accuracy on stationary targets in Emperor is 100%, which means infantry are not harder to hit, yet easier to kill.

They really make units like the flamethrower infantry and the Atreides Infantry pretty useless units. Company Of Heroes made weapons miss on occasion, and gave infantry abilities that made them relevant even against vehicles. Sadly, Emperor does not have that kind of interface, so infantry would probably have to suffer in the long run in Emperor.

[Dunenewt]

I think I made infantry easier to kill, and cheaper, but I made it easier for them to gain veteran levels, and made them more powerful when they reached these levels, especially the level six Sardaukar troopers.

Its pretty easy to make weapons not hit all the time, well it is in the case of artillery and mortars.

[Megashrap]

Well in opinion emperor is well balanced and often its the sub house that make the difference.

Atr turrets make up for their other weaknesses at the start, but to me it's what the player does with the units that makes the difference. Their ability to use units in innovative ways that makes the transition from campaign/skirmish play to online gaming so hard or challenging.

Yea, it really is the most balanced RTS of it's type to this day even. I don't think anything needs changing including subs. Every house has it's pro's n conn's..it all boils down to what and how you make and use your units.

[alchemi2]

Sorry let me clarify, i don't think the sub house are unbalanced as such, what i meant was dependant on the subhouse combination with the main house changes the balance of the houses performance.

As ever it comes down to how the player uses his forces as to the outcome.

Unlike other RTS I've played there is no major imbalances in in the actual forces IMO.

The only real weakness is the Telixeu infantry which are too weak and slow but apparently according to Jules in another thread this was deliberate as in the campaign game they became unstopable.

[eid]

i would have to agree with chris on this one... rts interfaces havn't come very far since dune2 or even TA

Ai has been used to take over the player in such cases, (attack move) to fascilitate multitasking..

but what i still see in many 'rts games' is  variably the same, with a high emphasis on combat ( clickfest )

as the AI hasnt quite gotten there yet, or the devs dont want it to be tooo easy?

still its getting close to the point where we dont have to do much in the way of getting a unit to respond automaticly with an appropriate action...

in a way i feel that rts games ought to be relabled..

real time tactical sounds more fitting for a game such as c&c or dune

its also hard not to confuse strategy with tactics at times also.

there may come day when the Ai controls ur units combat entirely with no need to save that 1 unit at 10% health

as itl do that automaticly..

most rts gamers dislike this kind of change as is takes away from the whole 'Micro uberness'

and still some will imply it would make a good change to the amount of thinking ones does in a rts game..

by giving them time.. and an interface that they DONT have to fight with..

which brings me to another point.. even still to this day i feel i fight with the interface more than with my opponent.. in emp its attack move( some move, some dont feel like it)which results in more clickfest.

blah blah pathfinding i hear you...  but you still cant deny the fact im telling the game to do something,

and its having a really hard time with it. 

to the point where that ubermicro may just make the problem more technical at times.

anyway *rant off

[gunner154]

Well, with regards to units moving or not, it makes me think that some games boil down to who overcomes interface limitations better. It's like the 12-unit limit on Warcraft III. The player who is able to control more than 12 at one go would naturally have an advantage.