Dune 2 eXtended Project

[Nyerguds]

Huh... if it's for English anyway, why didn't you just use the original WW sound patch? (ftp://ftp.westwood.com/pub/dune2/updates/d2sound.exe) The only thing my patch has more than that is the language selection...

[vota dc]

Good game,but I found light infantry useless (save for capture buildings).I'm not against a very weak unit,but the price should be lowered:a trike cost little more but is at least twice stronger,is faster and can't be crushed.

[Talhydras]

The demo is crashing for me after the first level of the campaign :( I installed a fresh copy of dune2 v1.07, then configured things to use soundblaster pro and extended memory, and ran it in dosbox.

That being said, the Sardauker are kind of incredible. One of them I think can solo a quad... I hesitate to ask if you're going to be including whole Sardaukar -squads- (glee!).

[MrFlibble]

The demo is crashing for me after the first level of the campaign :(

Fixed that in the new release of the demo, plus:

• Fremen, Mercenary and Sardaukar units are no longer immune to deviation.
• Fremen Fedaykin changed back to Ordos Deviator.
• The Deviator now requires the Hi-Tech Factory and three Heavy Factory upgrades to be produced. It no longer requires House IX.
• Deviators are only built by House Ordos.
• Sonic Tanks can be now built by the Fremen.
• Heavy Trooper changed to Fremen Warrior.
• Heavy Trooper Squad changed to Fremen Warriors.
• Light Infantry Soldier hit points increased from 20 to 35.
• Light Infantry Soldier movement speed increased from 8 to 10.
• Light Infantry Soldier weapon damage increased from 3 to 5.
• Light Infantry Squad hit points increased from 50 to 85.
• Light Infantry Squad movement speed increased from 5 to 8.
• Light Infantry Squad weapon damage increased from 3 to 5.
• Saboteur hit points increased from 10 to 20.
• Saboteur weapon damage increased from 2 to 3.
• Saboteur cost increased from 120 to 150.
• Sardaukar Trooper hit points decreased from 135 to 120.
• Sardaukar Trooper movement speed decreased from 12 to 10.
• Sardaukar Trooper sight range decreased from 3 to 2.
• Sardaukar Trooper weapon damage (per rocket) decreased from 12 to 10.
• Sardaukar Trooper weapon reload time increased from 60 to 75.
  

Read more in the demo readme file.

Huh... if it's for English anyway, why didn't you just use the original WW sound patch? (ftp://ftp.westwood.com/pub/dune2/updates/d2sound.exe)

That's because it actually sets the game to German - initially, I just swapped the words "English" and "Deutsch" in the 3-language selection menu. But the text in the game is, of course, in English.

The only thing my patch has more than that is the language selection...

The newer versions of the setup program also display the minimum amount of memory required to play the game. Not that it matters, really, but still.

[MrFlibble]

I have implemented the fixes submitted by segra and updated the demo. Other changes in the new version include:

• Keyboard shortcuts now work correctly on the side selection screen. Press M to select the Mercenaries, F to select the Fremen and S to select the Sardaukar.
• Windtrap power output changed back to 100.
• Windtrap hit points changed back to 200.
• Windtrap cost changed back to 300.
• Barracks power consumption changed back to 10.
• Starport power consumption changed back to 50.
• House of IX reinstated as pre-requisite for all House tanks and Ornitopters.
• The Sardaukar no longer need the Hi-Tech Factory to produce Devastators.
• The Mercenaries can now buy a limited number of Deviators, Devastators and Sonic Tanks from the Starport on later missions.
  

Once again, great thanks to segra for his support of the project ;D

[jordos]

Didn't test this yet but I wonder if, as sandworms are set to the Fremen side, making Fremen units susceptible to deviation might allow the Ordos to gain temporary control of those beasts as well?

[MrFlibble]

I've thought about that too, but, since you can't play as the Ordos, this kinda doesn't matter. Besides, in the original Dune II, the Fremen and the Sardaukar are not completely immune to deviation: there's a small chance that they can be deviated. In any case, this matters very little, since even if a sandworm is successfully deviated, this is not likely to affect its behavior, and the player can't get control of a sandworm anyway.

[MrFlibble]

I have just noticed that the Sardaukar Troopers are also repairable - another useful leftover from the Raider Trike, and a handy bonus for the Sardaukar players :)

[Nyerguds]

wicked... makes em look like some sort of cyborg super soldiers

[MrFlibble]

Well they have those heavy powersuits, you know... BTW, they also seem to drastically lose their movement speed when damaged below 50% HP (at least they don't emit smoke plumes, luckily :D).

I'm more concerned with changing the Mentat voice from "vehicle repaired" to "unit repaired" announcement, as the latter seems more appropriate. A seemingly decent solution is to change %cVEHICLE.VOC to %cUNIT.VOC, but then %cUNIT.VOC would be mentioned twice... I dunno if this won't cause problems ??? (Hopefully not) Gotta do some testing...

[Windwalker]

This is becoming very handsome :) Today i inspected your method for sardaukar. Thanks for this nice touhce!

[MrFlibble]

I've given the tech tree a major overhaul, now the Light Factory and the Heavy Factory are united in one Vehicle Factory structure that produces all kinds of vehicles. The similar-type "duplicate" units (Trike/Quad, Combat Tank/Siege Tank) have been given to different sides to increase diversion and avoid "useless" units in the tech tree. I think players will still want to buy more powerful units from Starport at later levels.

Here's a detailed list of changes:

• Switched to a newer version of the game executable.
  
• Light Factory and Heavy Factory united into a single Factory structure which produces all vehicles.
  
  

  
  

• Trike is now produced by Atreides and Fremen only.
  
• Quad is now produced by Harkonnens, Ordos and Mercenaries.
  
• Combat Tank is now available to Atreides, Fremen, Ordos and Mercenaries, and requires one Factory upgrade to be produced.
  
• Siege Tank is now available to Harkonnens and Sardaukar, and requires one Factory upgrade to be produced.
  
• Mobile Construction vehicle now requires two Factory upgrades.
  
• Rocket Launcher now requires three Factory upgrades.
  
• Rocket Launcher is no longer available to the Fremen.
  
• House of IX is no longer required to produce 'Thopters or special tanks. It is still required to produce Saboteurs and Deviators.
  
• Devastator is no longer available to the Sardaukar.
  
• Sonic Tank now requires 3 Factory upgrades and a Hi-Tech Factory.

[MrFlibble]

Here's a small update to the demo. I have finally figured out how to make decent quality VOCs, and the voice announcements now sound a lot better. Other changes include increased cost for the Sardaukar Vehicle Factory (from 500 to 600), and decreased build time for the Fremen/Mercenary Vehicle Factory. Also, several mission files were tweaked a bit, and some Mentat database entries were edited to reflect tech tree changes.

[Daelin]

Hello there,

I previously sent Flibble a message on Project Perfect Mod forums but he suggested me to "Forward" it here, even though he has already replied to it, so here it goes (I'll make a double post so we keep the new comments separated from what i have already written):

First of all I'll just mention that I got to play the Sardaukar mission (at the beginning of April) but reached only the last level and didn't bother to actually finish it. I have to say that it was a piece of cake, given the fact that i had the devastators at my fingertip, plus the sardaukar troopers had an awsome firepower. However, there were some problems:

1. While playing a mission against the ordos (I think mission 4 - nevertheless I had missile launchers unlocked), the enemy turrets were a bit too close to my base, and therefore their attack was triggered by my carryalls (which would now and then strike at my buildings). I had the base at the bottom part of the map and the enemy had two bases (one to the left, and one to the right).

2. The available building and unit information were not always consequent to the actual buildings/units available. For example, in mission 5 even though the starport had been unlocked (and subsequently the frigate), none were present in the menu. Maybe you should fix this!

3. Some mentat orders were also bizzare. For instance in the last level, it mentioned the betrayal of the Atreides, the Ordos and the Emperor (though I was playing on the side of the emperor). Maybe you should check all these texts and have them fixed!

4. I have to say that the sandworms are quite a pain in the ass. In mission 8, I couldn't understand why the Fremen would attack me so soon, sending orni after orni, when I had barely built the Outpost. Only then I came to realize that the Worm triggered the existance of the player, and consequently the attack waves of the Fremen. Maybe you should take a look at this (and maybe remove the worms or change their positions until you can change this).

5. Why so many "simulations"? I remember seeing simulation battles up to map 7 and the pretext is quite ridiculous, given the fact that you are visibly struggling for enemy territory. Simulation with Ordos forces, simulation with Atreides forces.... it just doesn't sound right!

6. Why battle the Ordos and the Atreides? Since there are two new factions, wouldn't it be more logical to battle the Fremen and/or the Mercenaries? Same goes for when playing the other factions. At the beginning you should get the support of the allied house, and later when battling both sides, have a small supporting base of the allied house too. Finally in the last battle, "your" allied house would then battle you too (except the Fremen-atreides as I get that is actually a problem with the game code).

7. As mentioned at point 6, but with the map territory. It would be really cool to actually see a battle of territory between the 3 houses, and as for the final mission, your ally (except the Fremen where you would have the emperor) take the color.

And now, the last modifications to the techtree, I find them ridiculous. If the Harkkonnen and the Emperor for instance have Siege Tanks so quickly, this makes the game strongly imbalanced, unless you modify the stats of the counterpart tanks and troops. The trike is inferior to the Quads which are inferior to the Sardaukar... => Sardaukar heavily pawns trike. Same goes for siege tank vs combat tank. I think you seriously need to rethink the techtree.

I noticed the problem after downloading the last patch and attempting to play with the Fremen. The Harkkonnen had Siege Tanks in the first mission, while I had at my disposal only small troopers... this is a serious problem in the balance of the three factions and you should search for a solution right away. I mean, sure... the ordos were a bit disadvantages in the initial game due to the lack of missile launchers, but the later deviator bug would bring a huge advantage to them, somehow rebalancing the game.

And btw, I miss the Light Factory. Sure that at the later levels it becomes quite useless, but it had is charm and was part of the original game. I'd hate to see it gone... maybe we can find a new purpose for it (ex: build Harvesters?).

[Daelin]

And here is my reply to Flibble's reply and additional comments:

About 1. - yes, enemy turrents attack your carryalls too. I first noticed it in the "normal" game when I had carryalls pick my troops from the enemy base and bring then back to repairing. Strangely, both Missile AND regular Turrets strike the carryalls (so I guess regular turrets also attack ornis?).

About 6. I mistakely mentioned "you"... I was referring to the computer. :)

----------------------------

Okay, let's get now to the new comments.

1. Giving the Saurdaukars strong tanks, and the other factions really small ones makes the game seriously imbalanced. I understand in Red Alert 1 things were like this (never played it). Okay... I have no idea whether in RA you could select multiple units, but in Dune 2, you cannot! And this is a serious problem when you have large numbers of troops and you need to order different groups different actions. Though this idea sounds cute, I have to say that it strongly ruins the balance of the game.

Let's look at the Special Units of the original houses:

1. Harkkonen's Devastator - High Armor, High Firepower... but short range, very slow, and unstable. Easily countered by Ordos' Deviator (self destruct?  ;D).

2. Atreides' Sonic Tank - High Range, Medium Firepower, Sonic Damage (line thingy)... but Low Armor and range subject to game speed (probably a bug). Sonic Damage also affects your troops (except other Sonic Tanks). Countered by Harkkonnen Devastator.

3. Ordos' Deviator - Use enemy troops against them, deviation bug is really useful... but Low Armor, Medium Range, No Firepower, and effect subject to chance. Countered by Atreides Sonic Tank.

So it would go like this:

Devastator owns Sonic Tank

Sonic Tank owns Deviator

Deviator owns Devastator

(rock paper scissors anyone?  :) ).

So what I'm trying to point here out is just the fact that the factions were relatively balanced. Sure, the Death Hand is really strong compared to the Saboteur, but most of the time you need to cheat for it to be effective... just as the Fremen in my opinion were actually useful when the rocket turrets did not attack them.

The smaller tanks have practically NO advantages to the stronger tanks (except that they are cheap? ... uhm.... we'll get to that too): they have less HP, less Armor, less Firepower, and are not even much faster! I bet a small army of siege tanks could beat a large army of Quads... It's just the way it is in Dune 2. Quads have absolutely NO advantage towards Siege Tanks so they always get owned.

2. About the purpose of the Starport: can Mercenaries only get the stronger tanks by means of the Starport? Same for non-factory-accessible tanks for Fremen and Sardaukars.

3. It would be cool to still have the Light Factory graphic around. Why not switch the non-Hark/Sard. factory with the Light Factory? 2 tiles smaller ^^ Plus maybe you should reduce some windtrap power requirements too.

4. I saw that someone suggested that you should replace the Bene Gesserit mentat for the Mercenaries with Gurney Halleck. I second that... Cryo's Gurney seems the perfect replacement (let's just say that the Bene Gesserit doesn't really have a "Mercenarish" aspect, but Gurney does :D).

Btw... I have a curiosity about the deviated tanks :) How do the ordos react if you ally them and use deviators? Do they actually attack your foes? This is more of a curiosity :)

My conclusion? Serios modifications need to be made to the techtree if you want to actually make this whole "lighter tanks vs heavier tanks" thing applicable :) this includes units' damage, hp, armor and range

Thanks for your time!

-Daelin

[Nyerguds]

Your rock paper scissors thing isn't really correct, since there are differences in prices and thus in numbers. I wouldn't be too sure a devastator owns a few sonic tanks.

[Daelin]

this was more a 1 vs 1... a mere disadvantage in my opinion... 6 devastators (4800$) have an advantage over 8 sonic tanks (4800$). Of course, the outcome depends on several factors such as the battlefield itself (sonic tanks are after all ranged) and the experience of the owners of the tanks (or more specifically the player, since there is no multiplayer support in Dune 2).

-Daelin

[MrFlibble]

Thanks for posting here, Daelin :)

Here's the reply to the first batch of comments:

1. While playing a mission against the ordos (I think mission 4 - nevertheless I had missile launchers unlocked), the enemy turrets were a bit too close to my base, and therefore their attack was triggered by my carryalls (which would now and then strike at my buildings). I had the base at the bottom part of the map and the enemy had two bases (one to the left, and one to the right).

I'll look into this - I didn't know that enemy turrets attack the player's carryalls...

You see, most missions are "clones" of the original Dune II missions anyway, so I did not expect problems with mission design. But it is true that I've modified some missions in the Sardaukar campaign to make them tougher, and replaced all Turrets with Rocket Turrets in an earlier mission.

2. The available building and unit information were not always consequent to the actual buildings/units available. For example, in mission 5 even though the starport had been unlocked (and subsequently the frigate), none were present in the menu. Maybe you should fix this!

Hm, I think I have edited the Mentat databases to reflect the tech level changes, but then again, I may have only edited the units. I will certainly check that, thanks for pointing it out :)

3. Some mentat orders were also bizzare. For instance in the last level, it mentioned the betrayal of the Atreides, the Ordos and the Emperor (though I was playing on the side of the emperor). Maybe you should check all these texts and have them fixed!

Yeah, I haven't written all the briefing texts yet, so these are the old sides' briefings as placeholders right now.

4. I have to say that the sandworms are quite a pain in the ass. In mission 8, I couldn't understand why the Fremen would attack me so soon, sending orni after orni, when I had barely built the Outpost. Only then I came to realize that the Worm triggered the existance of the player, and consequently the attack waves of the Fremen. Maybe you should take a look at this (and maybe remove the worms or change their positions until you can change this).

Ah, that's a very good observation, as I haven't though of this effect. Thank you again :) An obvious solution is to change ownership for the sandworms, as their behavior will not be affected by this.

5. Why so many "simulations"? I remember seeing simulation battles up to map 7 and the pretext is quite ridiculous, given the fact that you are visibly struggling for enemy territory. Simulation with Ordos forces, simulation with Atreides forces.... it just doesn't sound right!

Well, that's the idea behind the demo, that the campaign is a "training" before the actual campaign in the "full" version. Initially, I intended the demo to be a replacement of the original Super Dune 2, as SD2SE/DuneX evolved to become very different from Super Dune 2, but then I compiled Super Dune II: Classic Edition, which is true to the original, so there's no more need for a "replacement". But I kept the "simulation" idea as a placeholder for a story at this point of project development. Don't forget - it's a work-in-progress demo, so lots of things are incomplete.

6. Why battle the Ordos and the Atreides? Since there are two new factions, wouldn't it be more logical to battle the Fremen and/or the Mercenaries? Same goes for when playing the other factions. At the beginning you should get the support of the allied house, and later when battling both sides, have a small supporting base of the allied house too. Finally in the last battle, "your" allied house would then battle you too (except the Fremen-atreides as I get that is actually a problem with the game code).

Once again, it's for the demo purposes. Ideally, you should get to fight all 5 (4 in the case of the Fremen) other factions during the course of the campaign.

Using "allied factions" in a mission (if I understood your idea correctly) is not possible, as allying with an AI, like with the Atreides/Fremen, is hardcoded, and for the Fremen it also doesn't work, as the Atreides AI doesn't do anything if you're playing Fremen.

7. As mentioned at point 6, but with the map territory. It would be really cool to actually see a battle of territory between the 3 houses, and as for the final mission, your ally (except the Fremen where you would have the emperor) take the color.

I have been thinking on making a more dynamically changing global conquest map, but I haven't enough time for that ATM.

And now, the last modifications to the techtree, I find them ridiculous. If the Harkkonnen and the Emperor for instance have Siege Tanks so quickly, this makes the game strongly imbalanced, unless you modify the stats of the counterpart tanks and troops. The trike is inferior to the Quads which are inferior to the Sardaukar... => Sardaukar heavily pawns trike. Same goes for siege tank vs combat tank. I think you seriously need to rethink the techtree.

Hm, I've thought that the tech tree changes make the game more C&C-styled, like the GDI have Medium Tanks whereas Nod has much weaker, but cheaper Light Tanks (same with Humm-vee/Nod Buggy etc.) A solution may be to increase the number of attack units in AI attack teams for the sides with weaker units.

I noticed the problem after downloading the last patch and attempting to play with the Fremen. The Harkkonnen had Siege Tanks in the first mission, while I had at my disposal only small troopers... this is a serious problem in the balance of the three factions and you should search for a solution right away. I mean, sure... the ordos were a bit disadvantages in the initial game due to the lack of missile launchers, but the later deviator bug would bring a huge advantage to them, somehow rebalancing the game.

Ah, that's because the Harkonnens start with the fully upgraded Light Factory, which was remade into the Harkonnen/Sardaukar Vehicle Factory (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to add the wheeled vehicles to the build list, as it has max 8 positions), and Siege Tanks require one upgrade now. I'll fix it by changing the Harkonnens to some other faction in this mission.

And btw, I miss the Light Factory. Sure that at the later levels it becomes quite useless, but it had is charm and was part of the original game. I'd hate to see it gone... maybe we can find a new purpose for it (ex: build Harvesters?).

Sorry for that, I used it to make the Harkonnen/Sardaukar Vehicle Factory (see above).

And btw, if you struggle too much to improve something, at some point you will ruin the general idea of the game.

Very true. However, since I made Super Dune II: Classic Edition, I decided to have DuneX as an experimental field to test out different ideas. Currently, it's C&C time in terms of tech tree and game play, but if I had a bit more feedback on the project, I'd know how the changes are received by the players (more comments, people *wink wink*).

[MrFlibble]

Here goes batch number two (hopefully double-posting is OK in these circumstances, as otherwise the posts will be too long to read through).

About 1. - yes, enemy turrents attack your carryalls too. I first noticed it in the "normal" game when I had carryalls pick my troops from the enemy base and bring then back to repairing. Strangely, both Missile AND regular Turrets strike the carryalls (so I guess regular turrets also attack ornis?).

Looks like this only happens in the EU version of the EXE, which I used for the latest release of the mod. I haven't observed such behavior before.

Maybe regular turrets attack not the carryalls themselves but the units the carryalls are picking up? Because normal turrets are not supposed to target aircraft. I have noticed that even in Dune II v1.0, carryalls would be sometimes shot down by enemy fire (from ground units or turrets) when they were picking friendly for repair or dropping them.

1. Giving the Saurdaukars strong tanks, and the other factions really small ones makes the game seriously imbalanced. I understand in Red Alert 1 things were like this (never played it). Okay... I have no idea whether in RA you could select multiple units, but in Dune 2, you cannot! And this is a serious problem when you have large numbers of troops and you need to order different groups different actions. Though this idea sounds cute, I have to say that it strongly ruins the balance of the game.

Yes, at this point, there's very little, if any, balance. But the original Dune II tech tree has its own disadvantages - the "useless" units. Infantry, wheeled vehicles and combat tanks become more or less "useless" when Siege Tanks and House tanks are introduced. I have tried to remedy this like WS did in C&C and later games - distribute the "duplicate" units among different sides. But I have to agree, the units' stats need a lot of tweaking to make them balanced.

Let's look at the Special Units of the original houses:

1. Harkkonen's Devastator - High Armor, High Firepower... but short range, very slow, and unstable. Easily countered by Ordos' Deviator (self destruct?  ;D).

2. Atreides' Sonic Tank - High Range, Medium Firepower, Sonic Damage (line thingy)... but Low Armor and range subject to game speed (probably a bug). Sonic Damage also affects your troops (except other Sonic Tanks). Countered by Harkkonnen Devastator.

3. Ordos' Deviator - Use enemy troops against them, deviation bug is really useful... but Low Armor, Medium Range, No Firepower, and effect subject to chance. Countered by Atreides Sonic Tank.

So it would go like this:

Devastator owns Sonic Tank

Sonic Tank owns Deviator

Deviator owns Devastator

(rock paper scissors anyone?  :) ).

So what I'm trying to point here out is just the fact that the factions were relatively balanced. Sure, the Death Hand is really strong compared to the Saboteur, but most of the time you need to cheat for it to be effective... just as the Fremen in my opinion were actually useful when the rocket turrets did not attack them.

I agree with that, but here we face the obvious limitations of not being able to add any new units (I used the Raider Trike to make the Sardaukar Trooper). To make the new sides really different, one can only reshuffle the already existing units to make more-or-less different tech trees.

The smaller tanks have practically NO advantages to the stronger tanks (except that they are cheap? ... uhm.... we'll get to that too): they have less HP, less Armor, less Firepower, and are not even much faster! I bet a small army of siege tanks could beat a large army of Quads... It's just the way it is in Dune 2. Quads have absolutely NO advantage towards Siege Tanks so they always get owned.

Once again, the solution to this is in tweaking unit stats (HP, damage, attack range, rate of fire on one hand, and cost and production time on the other), and maybe the lists of units for each side (e.g. having a strong tank balanced by a weak wheeled vehicle).

2. About the purpose of the Starport: can Mercenaries only get the stronger tanks by means of the Starport? Same for non-factory-accessible tanks for Fremen and Sardaukars.

Yes, all units except House tanks are available via the Starport to all sides.

3. It would be cool to still have the Light Factory graphic around. Why not switch the non-Hark/Sard. factory with the Light Factory? 2 tiles smaller ^^ Plus maybe you should reduce some windtrap power requirements too.

Well, this can be done, of course, but I think the Heavy Factory GFX looks more like a building where Harvesters and other heavy stuff is produced.

I would like to have more opinions on this subject ;)

4. I saw that someone suggested that you should replace the Bene Gesserit mentat for the Mercenaries with Gurney Halleck. I second that... Cryo's Gurney seems the perfect replacement (let's just say that the Bene Gesserit doesn't really have a "Mercenarish" aspect, but Gurney does :D).

Except for this being a lot of tedious work for which I don't have time right now, this can be done.

Btw... I have a curiosity about the deviated tanks :) How do the ordos react if you ally them and use deviators? Do they actually attack your foes? This is more of a curiosity :)

Err... You can't ally with the Ordos - unless someone finds the Atreides/Fremen alliance code and modifies it.

Anyhow, the AI ally is really of little use. If you play Atreides, your Fremen allies willl attack the enemy, but won't produce anything even if they have the Refinery and other necessary buildings. If you play Fremen, the Atreides won't even attack your opponents, and neither will they be attacked by them, too.

My conclusion? Serios modifications need to be made to the techtree if you want to actually make this whole "lighter tanks vs heavier tanks" thing applicable :) this includes units' damage, hp, armor and range

Exactly. I think we should discuss these things in more detail. Nyerguds, as a C&C specialist, I think you can contribute a lot to this discussion ;)

[Daelin]

Maybe regular turrets attack not the carryalls themselves but the units the carryalls are picking up? Because normal turrets are not supposed to target aircraft. I have noticed that even in Dune II v1.0, carryalls would be sometimes shot down by enemy fire (from ground units or turrets) when they were picking friendly for repair or dropping them.

The repairing units behavior was noticed on missile turrets only (in missions 7 and 8). The normal turrets attacked "empty" carryalls.

Yes, at this point, there's very little, if any, balance. But the original Dune II tech tree has its own disadvantages - the "useless" units. Infantry, wheeled vehicles and combat tanks become more or less "useless" when Siege Tanks and House tanks are introduced. I have tried to remedy this like WS did in C&C and later games - distribute the "duplicate" units among different sides. But I have to agree, the units' stats need a lot of tweaking to make them balanced.

Exactly! Tweaking with the stats is the solution. The only problem is the fact that here we do not have different types of armor, and therefore the whole tweaking would be pretty limited. Speed also I do not know how much of an improvement would be for a unit, though I've read that you can sort of 'evade' attacks. Nevertheless, for example, present infantry is highly inferior to troopers and sardaukars. Something needs to be done (btw: fremen troopers can also steal enemy units so the light infantry brings absolutely no advantage).

I agree with that, but here we face the obvious limitations of not being able to add any new units (I used the Raider Trike to make the Sardaukar Trooper). To make the new sides really different, one can only reshuffle the already existing units to make more-or-less different tech trees.

Yep, it would be really cool to be able to add new units ^^ And due to the fact that you replaced the Trike with the Sardaukar, you will notice also that if a tank attempts to squash a sardaukar, it will explode or atleast get severly damaged. That's a nifty advantage ^^

Yes, all units except House tanks are available via the Starport to all sides.

That's really cool with one small exception: makes the factory pretty useless in certain situations... :) Atleast for the moment (because i take into consideration the fact that the project is obviously a WIP and you've mentioned this a lot of times already).

Well, this can be done, of course, but I think the Heavy Factory GFX looks more like a building where Harvesters and other heavy stuff is produced.

True, but then some other graphics in my opinion would be cool to differentiate the two factories. Again, this is a suggestion for future development. ;)

Err... You can't ally with the Ordos - unless someone finds the Atreides/Fremen alliance code and modifies it.

What happens if you attribute two houses' brain to the 'Human'? Does the game crash?

Anyhow, the AI ally is really of little use. If you play Atreides, your Fremen allies willl attack the enemy, but won't produce anything even if they have the Refinery and other necessary buildings. If you play Fremen, the Atreides won't even attack your opponents, and neither will they be attacked by them, too.

But if you place reinforcements at the enemy base or at your base, maybe even in waves, it would be a pretty nifty scenario thingy.

--------------

UPDATE: I've been thinking today about the techtree of the three factions and I came with the following ideas in terms of lighter/heaver troops

    a) Lighter Troops require quantity, so what if you decrease the unit maximum limit for the powerful factions (Sardaukar, Harkkonnen) and/or increase it for the lighter factions (in terms of lightness - largest for Mercs, smaller for Fremen? :) )

    b) I just realized that speed affects certain units and attack mechanisms such as the Missile turrets. Making lighter troops move faster would definitely make an advantage.

    c) Attack speed could also be tweaked towards the advantage of the lighter troops. Lighter means they can attack faster. A small increase in bonus, but a larger increase in speed. Of course, you would need for instance atleast 3 trikes to demolish a Siege Tank, but it's definitely getting better.

    d) Can ornis be controlled at a low level by players (not every move but order target)? I wonder if this has already been attempted..

    e) I wonder how various missiles can be manipulated... Where does the randomizing factor for the missile launcher dwell? If another unit is given this attack, does it also keep this property of the Launcher? Same for Sonic Tanks and line attacks.

I think in the end the techtree could get to this (inspired from Dune2000 and Emperor battle for dune too):

    Mercenaries - fast troops, with decent firepower (especially in terms of speed) but relatively low hit points... QUANTITY over quality :)

    Sardaukar - good firepower, good hit points, but slow movement and attack speed.... smaller quality, so expensive, but more powerful

    Fremen - focused on range... with decent firepower, speed and armor. I'd say the "mediocre" faction...

As for units, I'd go like this:

Mercenaries - infantry, trikes, tanks, ornis, fast saboteurs

Sardaukar - sardaukar trooper, siege tanks, launchers, devastators

Fremen - fremen trooper, quads, launchers, sonic tanks

If the ally thing would be succeeded, it would be really awsome to get reinforcements from the allied house... it would definitely improve the gameplay a lot. The few troops also focuses the game less on the techtree "development" (getting more and more units and stuff) and it could be somehow focused more on campaigns of some sort... destroy enemy base with no capability to construct anything for instance sounds like a cool scenario.

-Daelin

[MrFlibble]

Wow, that's a lot of interesting ideas here, Daelin ;D

The repairing units behavior was noticed on missile turrets only (in missions 7 and 8). The normal turrets attacked "empty" carryalls.

Weird. I gotta check that out...

(btw: fremen troopers can also steal enemy units so the light infantry brings absolutely no advantage).

Fremen Troopers do what? :O

Looks like there's a lot of things about Dune II that I don't know... ;D

Yep, it would be really cool to be able to add new units ^^ And due to the fact that you replaced the Trike with the Sardaukar, you will notice also that if a tank attempts to squash a sardaukar, it will explode or atleast get severly damaged. That's a nifty advantage ^^

And they are now repairable too ;) Luckily Carryalls don't pick 'em up when they are half damaged.

That's really cool with one small exception: makes the factory pretty useless in certain situations... :)

You know, I have even thought of entirely removing the Factory from the Mercenaries and only leave them the Starport (with more units in stock, of course), to make it resemble the Nod Airstrip unit production logic.

BTW, Daelin, if you haven't played Command & Conquer or Red Alert, I suggest you download and play C&C, as it is now freeware, because it's worth it really; you can skip RA1, but if you like C&C, you'll have fun with RA too :)

What happens if you attribute two houses' brain to the 'Human'? Does the game crash?

I remember testing this out quite a while ago, and IIRC the game crashes.

But if you place reinforcements at the enemy base or at your base, maybe even in waves, it would be a pretty nifty scenario thingy.

Will work when you play Atreides, won't if you're Fremen - as I've mentioned, the Atreides do nothing at all. They're only useful for the "Free Atreides units/commander from the enemy compound" mission type (kinda like when you have to free the peasants and mages from Alterac, only the liberated Atreides units won't be of any practical use to the player ;)).

    a) Lighter Troops require quantity, so what if you decrease the unit maximum limit for the powerful factions (Sardaukar, Harkkonnen) and/or increase it for the lighter factions (in terms of lightness - largest for Mercs, smaller for Fremen? :) )

Now that's an excellent idea! The only thing to remember here is that there is a global limit of units per map (which is 80 units, if I'm not mistaken), so perhaps it should be a two-way change: both decreasing for the Sardaukar and increasing for the other factions.

    b) I just realized that speed affects certain units and attack mechanisms such as the Missile turrets. Making lighter troops move faster would definitely make an advantage.

    c) Attack speed could also be tweaked towards the advantage of the lighter troops. Lighter means they can attack faster. A small increase in bonus, but a larger increase in speed. Of course, you would need for instance atleast 3 trikes to demolish a Siege Tank, but it's definitely getting better.

This is the principle that works for most units in Dune II: the more powerful the attack, the lower the speed, the heavier the armor, and the higher the price (e.g. Raider Trike -> Trike -> Quad -> Tank -> Siege Tank -> Devastator). The exact figures for unit stats can be only found through experimentation and careful testing. You can use Nyerguds' Dune II Editor to play around with unit stats.

    d) Can ornis be controlled at a low level by players (not every move but order target)? I wonder if this has already been attempted..

You can try modifying some stats via Nyerguds' editor, and make 'Thopters selectable. Perhaps this will work.

    e) I wonder how various missiles can be manipulated... Where does the randomizing factor for the missile launcher dwell? If another unit is given this attack, does it also keep this property of the Launcher? Same for Sonic Tanks and line attacks.

AFAIK, no one has tested that yet.

I think in the end the techtree could get to this (inspired from Dune2000 and Emperor battle for dune too):

    Mercenaries - fast troops, with decent firepower (especially in terms of speed) but relatively low hit points... QUANTITY over quality :)

    Sardaukar - good firepower, good hit points, but slow movement and attack speed.... smaller quality, so expensive, but more powerful

    Fremen - focused on range... with decent firepower, speed and armor. I'd say the "mediocre" faction...

As for units, I'd go like this:

Mercenaries - infantry, trikes, tanks, ornis, fast saboteurs

Sardaukar - sardaukar trooper, siege tanks, launchers, devastators

Fremen - fremen trooper, quads, launchers, sonic tanks

A very good proposition for thinking over. I'd like other people who are interested in the project to come along and express their ideas about this too :)

What units from the list above you think need tweaking (more/less armor and firepower in the first place)? And BTW, Fremen won't have tanks? Interesting :)

The few troops also focuses the game less on the techtree "development" (getting more and more units and stuff) and it could be somehow focused more on campaigns of some sort... destroy enemy base with no capability to construct anything for instance sounds like a cool scenario.

That's one of the things I planned for the mod from the beginning, mission variety. Have you played older versions of the Demo (when it was still Super Dune II Second Edition?). Some early Sardaukar and Fremen missions were like that. However, eventually I had to slow down on this aspect because of a general lack of time. If you want to try making some nice missions, you're welcome :)

BTW, another aspect you haven't mentioned is the storyline. Initially, my idea was to place the events in the middle of the original campaigns: the war on Arrakis drags on, and the Emperor decides to remedy the situation with his own troops. Meanwhile, the Ordos hire mercenary forces to help them out, and the Fremen plan to build up their own army to cleanse their world of any intruding forces.

However, if anyone has better ideas for the story, feel free to post 'em here ;) Maybe it should take place after the original Dune II? Waiting for your ideas, people :)

[Daelin]

Fremen Troopers do what? :O

Uhm.... didn't the first fremen mission involve raiding a harkkonnen camp and capturing their construction yard? ;)

You know, I have even thought of entirely removing the Factory from the Mercenaries and only leave them the Starport (with more units in stock, of course), to make it resemble the Nod Airstrip unit production logic.

I don't know if this would actually work. The starport brings a lot of limits, such as the "out of stock", fluctuating prices and the long delay between frigate arrivals. It would be extremely tough to balance the game if you wanted to give the Mercenaries only Starport... plus I do not know how you could make the Mercenary AI work in a feasible manner anymore, as the computer never uses the starport.

I remember testing this out quite a while ago, and IIRC the game crashes.

We really need to find a solution for the alliances.... the only problem is that I think the fremen of the atreides are not designed to work with base (defending, building units, sending attack waves), and that's why it would be almost impossible to make it work!

Will work when you play Atreides, won't if you're Fremen - as I've mentioned, the Atreides do nothing at all. They're only useful for the "Free Atreides units/commander from the enemy compound" mission type (kinda like when you have to free the peasants and mages from Alterac, only the liberated Atreides units won't be of any practical use to the player ;)).

Then this idea also fails to work, as "touching" atreides units does not grant you control over them. :)

Now that's an excellent idea! The only thing to remember here is that there is a global limit of units per map (which is 80 units, if I'm not mistaken), so perhaps it should be a two-way change: both decreasing for the Sardaukar and increasing for the other factions.

I'll also think about these numbers when I mess with the techtree.... Momentarily I want to play with Nyvegur's (hope I spelt it correctly) Editor, and see if I can modify more than primary stats (such as the attack randomizing factor, the "line" attack and the deviator gas). I'm also curious if the Atreides' palace can be modified in any way.

What units from the list above you think need tweaking (more/less armor and firepower in the first place)? And BTW, Fremen won't have tanks? Interesting :)

To get the best balancing all units will need some sort of tweaking... this means a LOT of testing and experimenting. So it means I'll need to allocate a huge amount of time for this. Momentarily as I said I'll play with the editor and post the results of my experiments (if I find anything interesting, that is).

That's one of the things I planned for the mod from the beginning, mission variety. Have you played older versions of the Demo (when it was still Super Dune II Second Edition?). Some early Sardaukar and Fremen missions were like that. However, eventually I had to slow down on this aspect because of a general lack of time. If you want to try making some nice missions, you're welcome :)

I am good at mission planning, I suck at "terraining" (not very good at making the map design itself). Therefore I could come up with some "written" ideas for the missions, but implementing them would be quite difficult for me (and the result would probably be a disaster  ;D).

BTW, another aspect you haven't mentioned is the storyline. Initially, my idea was to place the events in the middle of the original campaigns: the war on Arrakis drags on, and the Emperor decides to remedy the situation with his own troops. Meanwhile, the Ordos hire mercenary forces to help them out, and the Fremen plan to build up their own army to cleanse their world of any intruding forces.

You just gave me this magnificent idea, but I am curious how well could we make it work: what if across the campaigns, the player gets to play in certain missions with the "allied faction"? I mean, not have forces of both allies in the same map, but for example the mercenary commander (being you) infiltrates ordos forces inside a Sardaukar facility. The problem is the map, as I am not aware whether you could cover it in two colors (not the same territory, but different territories across the map as the player finishes a new level - when playing with ordos green territories appear, when playing with mercenary - yellow). This would definitely bring an improvement to the storyline and gameplay. I mean, so what if we have new factions? Modifying the techtrees means that the old factions will be quite affected by this change too :)

-Daelin

[Nyerguds]

That's Nyer-Guds :P

[Daelin]

That's Nyer-Guds :P

Okey dokey, I'll be more careful next time. Sorry... :)

[MrFlibble]

Uhm.... didn't the first fremen mission involve raiding a harkkonnen camp and capturing their construction yard? ;)

Ah, but you said units in your post, so I thought it's some other unknown feature found in the EU version of DUNE2.EXE currently used for DuneX.

Regular infantry, as well as Sardaukar Troopers, can capture buildings too.

The starport brings a lot of limits, such as the "out of stock", fluctuating prices and the long delay between frigate arrivals.

The "out of stock" depends on the preset limit, which is modifiable through each scenario INI. I think you can set each unit quantity in stock to 99 (or maybe even setting to -1 will work for an unlimited supply, I've read about that in an editing guide) to prevent possible lack of units. besides, the supply replenishes after time anyway.

The frigate arrival delay is modifiable for each side, read more here: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=20212.msg340181#msg340181

The "Frigate" variable is responsible for the delay time.

It would be extremely tough to balance the game if you wanted to give the Mercenaries only Starport... plus I do not know how you could make the Mercenary AI work in a feasible manner anymore, as the computer never uses the starport.

The Mercenary AI can be given regular factories. But I agree that this idea with the Starport will be not easy to implement.

Then this idea also fails to work, as "touching" atreides units does not grant you control over them. :)

Well anyhow, you kinda "free" them as you destroy the enemy base. Just to make some more diverse game play/story - you can't make complicated mission objectives in Dune II, even if we find out what all Win/LoseFlags are responsible for.

I'm also curious if the Atreides' palace can be modified in any way.

You mean change the superweapon type? Check out the link above.

To get the best balancing all units will need some sort of tweaking... this means a LOT of testing and experimenting. So it means I'll need to allocate a huge amount of time for this. Momentarily as I said I'll play with the editor and post the results of my experiments (if I find anything interesting, that is).

If you have that amounts of free time, that's excellent! :) You have already contributed a lot to the understanding of the unit data structure with your testing ;D

I am good at mission planning, I suck at "terraining" (not very good at making the map design itself). Therefore I could come up with some "written" ideas for the missions, but implementing them would be quite difficult for me (and the result would probably be a disaster  ;D)

Okay. There's no real "terraining" in Dune II anyway - the terrain is generated from the so-called "seed" values, and you can only add spice fields and spice blooms to it.

You just gave me this magnificent idea, but I am curious how well could we make it work: what if across the campaigns, the player gets to play in certain missions with the "allied faction"? I mean, not have forces of both allies in the same map, but for example the mercenary commander (being you) infiltrates ordos forces inside a Sardaukar facility.

I didn't quite understand this. If you're playing the Mercenaries, and have Sardaukar and Ordos AI's on the map, they will both attack you.

Another thing is that you can "switch" between sides during the campaign - e.g. you finish a mission as the Mercenaries, and play the next one as the Ordos. But such switches will require more mission files.

The problem is the map, as I am not aware whether you could cover it in two colors (not the same territory, but different territories across the map as the player finishes a new level - when playing with ordos green territories appear, when playing with mercenary - yellow).

You can fill the regions on the global map with any colors you want, that's no problem. But I still don't get it how you're going to allow the player to choose between the two factions. If it's like I described above (scripted side changes), I think it's a good idea :) In fact, I do like it a lot ;D