Harvester Drops

[kalem333]

Do not come to play with me, if you dont like harvesters drops. I hate you whenever you loose beacause of hangar + devastotor, and cry for harvesters drops. Some people think us as morons.

This is a classical thema. But i want to write some nicks who insulted me for this reason: Hermetic, Elsipues, Desertway, Sd00711, are the ones whom i remember. I beg them, not to play with me. This game can be played for a long time without our conflicts. I dont need you, as you dont need me. Just be away from me.

[darkd3th]

Or you can play better and not have to harv drop  :P lol

[erjin999]

Dude, kalem...you dont need to litter these forums with this. Just say it to their faces when they try to play with you. This isnt something that you need to plaster all over here.

[kalem333]

I said thier face. This is an extra.

[desertway]

Well if I play anymore you can beleive that the only time I would play with you Kalem is when no1 else is available. I also don't really care what you do in a 1 on 1 game. Team games wheen your harv droppin me and your partner is attacking me is when it sucks. Your harv drops alone only make u a broke mo-fo during a game. And since you really have no fighting abilities to support a harv drop I say 1 on 1 go ahead and drop away. However in a team game try and show some class.

[Arraki]

Well if I play anymore you can beleive that the only time I would play with you Kalem is when no1 else is available. I also don't really care what you do in a 1 on 1 game. Team games wheen your harv droppin me and your partner is attacking me is when it sucks. Your harv drops alone only make u a broke mo-fo during a game. And since you really have no fighting abilities to support a harv drop I say 1 on 1 go ahead and drop away. However in a team game try and show some class.

Well said desertway ;D

[pearlmen]

No one like when they get harvie rush(drop).

If it is just a tatic, why most ppl hate it? You need to think about it. They all know harvie drop totally makes imbalance battle in early(without many aa).

[kalem333]

is it illegal?

is it a cheatr?

no other qoestions...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Me personally.... I will harv drop someone "defensively" in self-defense only.  For example... say someone is charging in and i only have a force half their size, yea i will set up my harvs like a barracade, and hide behind it.

However i will NOT "offensively" use a harv drop.  For example.... say me and another person have equal armies and i just offensively harv drop them to clinch the victory.

Now the reason i wont offensively harv drop someone is not because i am such a nice guy... its because usually i need the cash very badly as i am a big spender, and i cant afford to lose the cash that a harv drop entails.  Its usually just not worth it.

Their is ONE exception to this rule for me tho.  And that is... if someone blows all my refs...  and i got 50 harvs laying around, then it IS worth it to offensively harv drop someone.  And TONS of people (not just kaleem) do this.  If you kill all of the refs of most people they will land all their harvs on your base or army.  So i usually try to make sure that if i am blowing up all of someone's refs that i prepare for the impending super harv drop and make plenty of sards or aa or elites.

However this is only my opinion as i will not enforce my "harvester beliefs" on another due to harv tactics not being a true cheat.  Also Chris Longpre one of the Emperor Developers said it was an intended tactic.   That remark can be found on this forum.

I guess in the end harv drop is similar to Guild tactics.... Guild niabs are not illegal or cheating.... but people still hate it... quite similar to harv dropping.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Here are some quotes from a thread on harv dropping:

SkumOmen - "its just a tactic"

Apollyon - "its a tactic thats saved my arse many a time"

Vilgent - " Not a fan.. but its a tactic"

Timenn - " Why should that be a glitch? Nothing happens that wasn't meant to happen.

And IMO it is a good tactic. Since every victory tactic is a good one."

Mendelbop - "Well, i see harvester dropping as something that both players can do. It's not a major problem, only sometimes annoying. Can be managed pretty well with any anti air."

Navaros- "harvester dropping has always been a stupid strat IMO.  you are wasting your harvesters.  i for one value my harvesters and would much rather waste other units instead."

Scy- "it's not a stupid idea if u use it well, u can stop chemicaltroppers rush and other weak rushs"

Chris Longpre- "Tactic Baby"

Sarb - "Yes it is a cheap way to win, but you got to remember it is a RTS game. Ive done it but only when Ive needed it to save my base from being destroyed.I dont use it when I am attacking,but like I said its a RTS game anything goes" 

Guns - "yea what sarb said"

Rebirth- "Cheap, but its a tactic"

Slapy - "it's not that bad, it's just that units go for harvs automatically even if there are other units next to it... if they do it you just have to learn how to manage your units' fire... "

Brennq - Stupid strat? I think its a very effective 1.  When enemy is distracted u can do much damage if u do it well offcourse. And dont forget u can ride down inf 2. Much more damage then loosing a harvester and maybe its income. If u r talking about the income off the harvester, just make a new 1 to do the harv drop or to harvest. I think a good defence to the harv drop is offcourse micromanage very well or back off a bit AND put one off ur own harvies up there. Other defence is anti air offcourse(air drones, elites, etc), but its really dumb that the enemy uses harv drop while u have anti air........

(wow didnt know brennq loved the harv drop so much )

Acelethal - "It's part of the game, you have to be ready for it.  Even if your opponent doesnt do it intentionally, it's easy for harvs to be selected with an attack force by accident, and sometimes battles take place around your spice.  You have to be able to deal with it.  Harvs can take a hell of a lot of damage."

Chris Longpre - Anytime you have a choice, with good & bad, yet different, consequences ... it is a tactic.  Force your enemy to micromanage a battle carefully, but loose an expensive harvester & slow your spice prodcution. And the fact that it is not universally seen as a preferably tactic, means it has some balance.  IMHO...

(wow the emperor dev is really defending it!.. says its legit and its a tactic!)

entire thread can be viewed here----> http://dune2k.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.msg180357#msg180357

So i would say that Kaleem has some backup and validity to his claims.... however while Brennq defends the harv drop... he was mainly a 1 vs 1 player... and Desertway said he didnt mind harv drop in 1 vs 1 as it is less effective in 1 vs 1.  So those two ideas sorta mesh together.  To be honest one harv isnt that bad, what i hate is when mjn throws like 6 harvs on me  ;) ,  Overall i agree with what Sarb posted ...but i must say i also agree with Acelethal in that if you go fighting around spice you better not complain when a harv gets in your way......i hate it when someoen comes and fights around your spice... and then they B!TCH and MOAN about how a harv got in their way.  Then dont come in my spice!

Guns

[kalem333]

That is it Gun. When pepole are beated me, their only excuse is harvester drops and it causes me to hate them.

[erjin999]

If you have like 50 harvs left over, most people would agree that they would use them, by then it probably will be defensively (you would have taken quite a hit to have loads of harvs left over).

[pearlmen]

the best way Harvester vs Havester(then you will see who is really good harvie drop man )8)

[ggom]

RAWR harv drops can be ^&%$ annoying, especially when some guys sits a bunch of harvs next to his army and ur ally needs help and u need to bust through the other guys army and harvs...

Lost a 2v2 once even though i had a superior army cos my ally got beat up on the other side of the map, and there some jerk sat at a choke with a harv and his army. couldnt get around it and the long way round in fishers plain leaves my infantry open on the move.... zzzz...

got really angry... in fact i think tt was kalem doing tt...

LOL

[kalem333]

Did I claim that I do the best harvester drops? Do you think you correctly understand the idea tried to be written here?

[pearlmen]

Did I claim that I do the best harvester drops? Do you think you correctly understand the idea tried to be written here?

You obviously don't get my reply point. well  you really understood my reply that...be best harvester dropper? lol

need I explain again?

Its not telling you but ppl that fight against harvie drop men. Its for just a way that real fight(fair game) without someone advantage.

etc)yea, most good ppl mentioned that harvie drop a bit annoying but its just one of tatics. I have known that. but they think its one of most dirty tatics too. If you want to keep this tatic, just do it. I guess almost guys have ever did harvie drop.  but dont post here and try to justify this shit tatic n make yourself abuser of shit tatic. and dont make ppl moron that hate harvie drop anymore.

[eid]

i gotta say, 'harv dropping' isnt exactly unique , or is it an ""exploit"" typical to emperor..

i've seen a lot of 'pro' broodwar players use scv/probe/drones as targets when they get 'ling rushed--that is they move all their scv units around the battle to act as a block/barricade/target..  it can change the tide of the game very quickly, to both ends if predicted and counter countered..

but there are a few things in this game that players could use unfairly to their advantage

harv dropping imo is valid, to the point of if i see ordos setting up mortar on a cliff with no support and my harv is right there (ex top right fishplain) a harvdrop could more useful than a kobra.. cheap, yes?- if u allow it...  but i quote all of u "its part of the game" no matter how bugged glitched or exploitive or overpowered it is..thats ignorance for ya!

so maybe kalem has hit all of us in a vulnerable spot, now if only the rest of u could see why i think subs r cheap too    .....  game mechanics people!!

theres more to an rts besides stats and strats

[erjin999]

Right, you talk of

and my harv is right there (ex top right fishplain)

But what about quite deliberately getting an advantage earliy in the game while obviously losing a battle, or thinking you will lose a battle, and mixing up harvs in there ? Thats getting an advantage others have got, because most people dont use harvs offensively/generally.

I have always maintained that if everyone did it and accepted it as part of the way the game was played, it would be fine. The fact that I get suprised by harv drops (thinking people would fight "normally") means I could go from reallocating resources to buildings and not units thinking I can defend myself and need to plan long term, and then get bushwacked by harvs cos some lump of sad human flesh has decided he wants to distract my army with harvs while bombing them.

Heck, why not get an "Angelina Jolie Unit (AJU)" there which projects a pic of said babe onto the sand dunes, this would distract all the male units!

That would be good, becuase at least I could see a picture of her before dying  ::).

[Megashrap]

I still maintain, the ability to make Sand Whores and place them at strategic choke points to lure the weak woulda been a nice touch. To see harv's diverting and driving by these sort of red light districts of the map instead of harvesting.  :D

[DelugeD]

all is legal in war! if you want to Harv drop then do it!

if they dont like it, well I guess it was working for you wasnt it,