micro & emperor.. ?

[Schorpie]

Heya,

I've been thinking ...

There are many different popular RTS games: C&C, starcraft, DoW, WC3, RA,

[erjin999]

Can I please start the flaming by saying "GET DEADED !"  >:(

:P

[alchemi2]

Well to me the beauty of Emperor has always been the simplicity of the game and the ease with which a player can reach a reasonable standard.

The acutal true mirco management of the houses is not that simple to master and there are more sutleties to the game than the control shift attack and hope tactic.

Having watched my nephew manipulate world of warcraft characters along with his friends, i'm not sure i agree with your evaluation of the skill level needed to play it.

[kalem333]

I know that i dont play this game well, but, the think that attracks me at emperor is its science-fiction frame. Such context of game makes me play this game every night.

[veK]

e:bfd isn

[jeff2429]

At times you need little micro, and then at times you need a lot of micro.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You confuse emperor's streamlined design and graceful ballet of warfare with being "easy".  Thats not the case.  Warcraft 3 is just a pure headache.  Terrible interface, terrible units.  TO be honest the main problem with warcraft is that the units are melee and therefore your army gets tangled up with the opposing army and it turns into a whole heap of mush that you cant control.

Since emperor is ranged combat it is more practical to micromanage.  You are also confusing Warcraft's odd gamestyle with "complicated gameplay".  Thats not the case.  Some of the units are bizarre and not straightforward in its use.  Whereas a buzzsaw is pretty easy to understand in terms of use, since we can all identify with a spinning blade that chops things.  However, controlling some ghost or flying creature in Warcraft is not intuitive and therefore takes some getting use to.  Plus add in the magical stuff and its just a heap of more unintuitive tactics and gameplay.

With emperor its use my sniper to take out the infantry and use the missile tanks to blow up the minos.   In warcraft its use my X spell to do X to X and then use my flying creature Z to do Y and X to Z.  It just a bunch of BS if you ask me.

Where emperor tactics really come into play is that it forces you to play in the style of real warfare.   Production amount MATTERS.  Production speed MATTERS.  Double teaming MATTERS.

Think about a double ordos double team.  Think about how quickly a game can be ended if your ally doesnt DO SOMETHING QUICK.   Emperor is so fast and furious... NOTHING can compare to the speed.  All other RTS games are soooo slow that any Tom, Dick, and Harry can adapt. But with Emperor if you blink for a second i will have 100 gass and dusties flooding your base.   HOLY SHIT!

Also Emperor lets you fight in different styles.  Like brute force?  use Hark  ... Like Hit and Run? use Ordos  .... Like Slow marching juggernauts?  Use Atreides.  No other RTS lets you use every aspect of battle possible so eloquently.  Also the micro needed to level up laser tanks and dusties to level 3 is IMMENSE.  You really have to concentrate, you wont get a level 3 dusty by CTRL CLICKING thats for sure!  Try CTRL CLICKING with minos and you'll fail miserably.  And the best part is that emperor doesnt screw the game up with HERO units or other types of BS and it doesnt have stupid crazy SUPERWEAPONS like GENERALS.  The superweapons in emperor are perfectly balanced.  The nuke for hark is perfect in that it is only a tactical nuke... not some god-like nuke in generals.  Emperor is so well thought out it is scary.

Yea thats right... emperor is no joke.... sure it seems easy to elite veterans..... but tell that to the same mediocre players who get spanked day in and day out.  If emperor is soooo easy why are the same elites around with very few entering their ranks?  You may "think" you're good but to be honest Pearl and Brennq and Jeff are the only ones that actually make me worry about whether i will win and they make me play 110% of my ability because i know they can beat me if i dont play to my fullest potential.

Furthermore, if you are just doing CTRL + CLICK and HOPING.... then you arent an elite.  You're basically a mediocre player who just has fun beating up on lower players and is too pussy to fight a real enemy (such as 2 elites on one team).  Emperor is so much more than CTRL + CLICK.  IN fact CTRL + CLICK is just one tiny aspect of the game.  The TRUE use of CTRL CLICK is to let you fight MULTIPLE BATTLES and do MULTIPLE TASKS.  Something you cant do in other games.

What do you mean Gunwounds?

Let me explain.  I can do CTRL CLICK on a battle .... then while it is fighting.... i can scroll up to the top of the map and deploy feds to makes worms and worm the enemy spice while my army is CTRL CLICK FIGHTING the enemy.  Then i have time to go back to my base.. deploy the next building,  put in an order from the starport, enter more units into the queue, zoom back to check on the battle and see if any micro is needed, then switch back to the worms to ensure they are killing harvs, then send a small detached force to aid my ally getting gass rushed, then go back to my base to collect the devastators coming out of my starport and send them to my enemy's base while regrouping my army from the last CTRL CLICK engagement, assessing if any micro is needed there, deciding where to drop my superweapons, checking to see if my forces stopped the gass rush on my ally, deploying more worms, sending carryalls to steal harvs,  checking my unit production and unit ratios, scouting my enemies base to see where i can do a bombing raid on his buildings, asking my ally for a mino drop to suppliment my forces, mixing feds in with my army to help take down kobras, taking care to approach the kobras from the sides so they dont get a clear shot at them while charging with buzz, then i have to look back at my base becuz a dev drop was placed there, then making a turrets, asking for a turret, repairing the building.......THEN... OH SHIT my harvs are getting leeched! ....FOOK!... DAMMIT!.... Gotta make engies, gotta guard the choke points.... SHIT planes coming to my base!.... need AA need TURRETS...oh crap my ally's minos just got deviated by an ordos deviator!... the drama never ends with emperor. If you're playing an opponent with skill that is.  Emperor is easy to get the hang of... but it takes a long time (and for some people NEVER) to master it.

And the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to be able to anticipate what your ENEMY is thinking and what tactic he will use as there is a counter-strategy for everything in emperor.

To say that emperor is "easy" and requires no micro simply because it has a CTRL CLICK option (which is really designed to allow you to multi-task) is the most premature judgement of a RTS video game.

p.s. - Warcraft may be more popular because it had a much more aggressive advertising campaign and of course there is no shortage of Blizzard fanboys devoting their lives to anything Blizzard makes.  Afterall, Starcraft and Warcraft have been around long before Emperor, and so therefore they had more time to build up a customer base and make it loyal.  Especially since Blizzard never stopped supporting their older games despite the fact they dont profit from it.  That goes a long way into making people loyal and having them appreciate your products.

Guns

[jeff2429]

He told you dude, he told you.

[KALONY]

now it is out: EMP IS GAME OF THE YEAR 2006!!!

KALONY

PS.: yall forget 1 thing. a game isnt good coz it`s difficult. a game is good when u have fun playing it. and i have fun when i have time to....hehe

[GUNWOUNDS]

agreed kalony.. its about fun not difficulty.

Also i forgot to mention that Emperor executes the  Rock, Paper, Scissors balance of gameplay in a most excellent manner.

[veK]

agreed kalony.. its about fun not difficulty.

another reason why emp is fun and wc3 e.g. not...  ;D

[erjin999]

Theres a whole lotta lovin' for emp right there  :)

[DelugeD]

erj your twisted

[eid]

well,  i consider myself to be a well rounded player in almost anything except rpg games.

but im not that good at any of them. not good enough to be called a 'pro' or 'elite' or whatever brands u guys go by these days.. ( but 57% rail efficiency isnt bad for a noob eh,its just not that good)

probly coz i play too many different games, be it soul calibur dawn of war c&c1 tekken vf4evo ut avp2 farcry etc,its kinda hard to keep up with em all and be joe kik ass at all of them.

 

but of all the rts games i've played i think ebfd and c&c1 are the fastest games around and like kalem its the sci-fi theme that i like..

its the only reason id rather play broodwar over warcraft(which i hated ever since day1 thanks to dune2)   

as far as micro management goes? well...i actually find myself using more actions per minuite than dow or jtf put together...but only when i use standard houses....if i use those 'other' units  then its just a simple case of guns advice 'be faster than them,be more efficient than them,have more mumbers than them,be doing more than them,and escalate counter tactics based on their bo' i dont expect a win everytime i try that tho,  but it definately makes it a LOT easier ..so much easier in fact i dont have to tech most of the time, that and  my ping from australia doesnt always go down well for ordos.. so my mm is hopeless on the net...get me on lan

other games like dow and jtf aow bw have this streamlined economy and unit cap system that doesnt flow as well as emp or c&c (dont even bring generals up) ,which is all fine and well but its just not the same, and doesnt seem to allow  as much flexibility based on 'time:requisition ratio'  so i guess in terms of mm,  u need to be more conservative in those rts games..but that doesnt really make it harder,,to me it just makes it slower and more predictable..

dune and c&c have always been my fav all time rts games, and some people like a challenge,  those who dont, simply use the 'thing that works' and dont bother with anything else. what more can i say  buzz sard inf fremn...ctrl shift spam spam  gship spam spam  dev spam spam gg

it just bothers me when people cant see however slight an imbalance vs a strategic advantage

after trying everything else it has to offer in different ways, failing that blaming it on useless units,etc... then using 'whatever works' coz the rock paper scissors system has failed all of their units.. then use 'those' units coz ur too taxed to think of anything else.. 

thats where a strategy game almost turns into a clicknkill frenzy...

to be honest i think i like c&c1 more for its balance over emp.. nothing is out of place...

oh and at guns.. most other rts games have ctrl shift 'attack-move' even c&c ctrl+alt, but i think ur right in that its mainly there for multitasking or peice meal mm and kiteing.

it would suck if we still had dune2 rules and had to select each unit 1 at a time and give it an order after every turn LOL...  U,move,here U,build,this,here  u,move,here u,move,here,as well u attack that  LOLOLOLOL  ur probly korean if u can mm all that as fast as in emp :P

and no thats not a stab at u koreans either,, just ask mr programmable stick legend aoiki raijin himself..

[pearlmen]

If you compare the micro you need at warcraft, it is double (if not more) as difficult als the micro you need at emperor(/C&C/). Some people at warcraft have APMs of 200!

Now what Im trying to say I think that a slow, lowskilled person can get good in emperor, just by playing much. Just because the game is easier .

That explains also why Warcraft III TFT for example is one of the most important games at the WCG. And emperor or RA never even got there.

Then many good warcraft players played emp long and ranked high emp ladder or bc? No one gurantee.

But at least I can say that. If a man plays well starcraft or warcraft, its not mean he plays emp well also.

I know my freind. He is really awesome in starcraft n warcraft. His clicking speed very fast than me. I cant get his speed.But I beated up him all in emp, even he played a lot emp for months. I believe you know what I mean.

and I dont think emp is easier than craft series.

Many ppl quitted this game for many reasons. But I tell just one of things.

the one that emp is easy to play for new(easy sidebar interface and simple shotcut key) but when a man getting high ranker,he need to study really complicative unit-counter, timing attack. I think many ppl didnt know how to deal with mino hoard or lasertank. They might thought that emp very simple game coz only mino hoard just wipe off all or ordos overpower for lasertank movingshot n mortar shit long range. But you know its not.

To elites or good players, they feel the game easy n simple like you, coz emp is not simple and easy game but, they played much and know everything this game mecanism I think.

I dont mean emp is more good than warcraft. their playstyle very different each other.(real warfare vs magical world) ;)

[veK]

it's not about the game itself being easier, it's about the micro...

and the micro isn't as far as com

[Schorpie]

i'm sorry... i was drunk when i started this topic... but ah whatever  :)

Many ppl quitted this game for many reasons. But I tell just one of things.

the one that emp is easy to play for new(easy sidebar interface and simple shotcut key) but when a man getting high ranker,he need to study really complicative unit-counter, timing attack. I think many ppl didnt know how to deal with mino hoard or lasertank. They might thought that emp very simple game coz only mino hoard just wipe off all or ordos overpower for lasertank movingshot n mortar shit long range. But you know its not.

To elites or good players, they feel the game easy n simple like you, coz emp is not simple and easy game but, they played much and know everything this game mecanism I think.

Yea... I agree.. u've some nice statements

Furthermore, if you are just doing CTRL + CLICK and HOPING.... then you arent an elite.  You're basically a mediocre player who just has fun beating up on lower players and is too pussy to fight a real enemy (such as 2 elites on one team).  Emperor is so much more than CTRL + CLICK.  IN fact CTRL + CLICK is just one tiny aspect of the game.  The TRUE use of CTRL CLICK is to let you fight MULTIPLE BATTLES and do MULTIPLE TASKS.  Something you cant do in other games.

What do you mean Gunwounds?

Let me explain.  I can do CTRL CLICK on a battle .... then while it is fighting.... i can scroll up to the top of the map and deploy feds to makes worms and worm the enemy spice while my army is CTRL CLICK FIGHTING the enemy.  Then i have time to go back to my base.. deploy the next building,  put in an order from the starport, enter more units into the queue, zoom back to check on the battle and see if any micro is needed, then switch back to the worms to ensure they are killing harvs, then send a small detached force to aid my ally getting gass rushed, then go back to my base to collect the devastators coming out of my starport and send them to my enemy's base while regrouping my army from the last CTRL CLICK engagement, assessing if any micro is needed there, deciding where to drop my superweapons, checking to see if my forces stopped the gass rush on my ally, deploying more worms, sending carryalls to steal harvs,  checking my unit production and unit ratios, scouting my enemies base to see where i can do a bombing raid on his buildings, asking my ally for a mino drop to suppliment my forces, mixing feds in with my army to help take down kobras, taking care to approach the kobras from the sides so they dont get a clear shot at them while charging with buzz, then i have to look back at my base becuz a dev drop was placed there, then making a turrets, asking for a turret, repairing the building.......THEN... OH SHIT my harvs are getting leeched! ....FOOK!... DAMMIT!.... Gotta make engies, gotta guard the choke points.... SHIT planes coming to my base!.... need AA need TURRETS...oh crap my ally's minos just got deviated by an ordos deviator!... the drama never ends with emperor. If you're playing an opponent with skill that is.  Emperor is easy to get the hang of... but it takes a long time (and for some people NEVER) to master it.

And the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to be able to anticipate what your ENEMY is thinking and what tactic he will use as there is a counter-strategy for everything in emperor.

To say that emperor is "easy" and requires no micro simply because it has a CTRL CLICK option (which is really designed to allow you to multi-task) is the most premature judgement of a RTS video game.

No... Emperor released years before Warcraft III. Also... dune 2 released years beforce warcraft... so actually it is dune that could build up a bigger fanbase.

And the things you say with multiple tasking... that's the shit what I'm talking about. you can say the exact same story at warcraft 3, but warc is even more intense. The things you say... like fe your harvs that are getting leached, or fremen u deploy during a battle... Those things also happen at warcraft, but alllloott faster. with emperor you can sit back and do *click.. click.. click...* ...... don't get me wrong... i was once kinda good at emperor, i won vs brennq/harkdawg/gzakiller... although that's a long time ago (i can hardly remember it myself  :)) and i kinda know what ur talking about. (as a ordos player u get raped anyway if u don't know those stuff). with warcraft u've also the ability that units with piercing damage do the double of their damage vs no armored units and units with magic damage do double damage vs heavy armor units etc etc... it get's soo complicated what to use and what to build..

But this is kinda stupid to discuss about, it's the same as a warcraft player comes here and he post a topic of: 'EMPEROR IS IMBA, MINO'S ARE OVERPOWERED' Whatever u say, none of the emp people could convince him that mino's are easily beateble. Especially when u mass them they go down like nothing. The warcraft player wouldn't believe that... because he thinks that he has played emperor online and he thinks that he already knows everyhing about it.

Although i gotto submit that it was kinda stupid to post this topic.... ah well... i've had to be really drunk  :P

[Megashrap]

The best rts out there is def StarCraft due to the unique races and it was a Next Generation RTS back in 98'.If you ask me..I cant say that wc3 is better than emp..but i can say that wc3 is 100xtime more stable than emp;)

You have GOT to be kidding me...StarCraft, the best RTS out? I'm really not trying to be insulting but that is a total joke. I have searched for about 5 years now for an RTS that I could honestly say,"Damn this game is as good as Emp's gameplay and graphics quality etc." However I did fall into the extremly over-hyped RTS Generals mainly because alot of the old FEW clan mates were going to get it. I played it maybe around 50 games total with Jeff, Sendakon, Pro and Tracx. Shortly after I gave it to my nieghbors kid.

Now I don't understand what you mean by Emps stability issues, but the only thing that creates an issue with Emp is usually people with a really crappy PC, or Dial-up trying to play with everything maxed out. Hell, I can even play Emp using Dial-up and wont even lag.

I understand that you are a Blizzard fan and all, but StarCraft IMHO should not even be sold along side Emp.

[pearlmen]

I played Starcraft,dune2 emp wc2 and wc3.The best rts out there is def StarCraft due to the unique races and it was a Next Generation RTS back in 98'.If you ask me..I cant say that wc3 is better than emp..but i can say that wc3 is 100xtime more stable than emp;)

with craft games(starcraft, warcraft3)You just learn that how to get fast clicking skill 8),in starcraft if you just have clinking speed fast and have huge amount of unit than opponent, you never lose. and in starcraft, you can hit strike a target 100% no phisical laws there, but they re good to watching and have fun.

I dont give any merit to starcraft except battlenet is really stable.

note)

Its not what i saying that starcraft good or bad game here. I like to play starcraft too. But nuvo you always bring starcraft to emp board that you seem to try starcraft really great than emp. plz post ur care starcraft greatness to game post.

[GUNWOUNDS]

the starcraft series came out before emperor so its easy to say that there were plenty of Blizzard fans before there ever was an emperor or dune2 fan.

Lets get serious... emperor was poorly advertised and dune2 wasnt a big hit.  Chris longpre one of the developers said that it was hard to market a "dune" game to regular people.

A magical game like warcraft was easier....

The fact of the matter is .... is that blizzard did a much better job at advertising and giving support to their games... so that you will find many more blizzard fans than Westwood or EA fans.

And the issue of war3 complexity.... its just complex in that it is BS magical stuff.... emperor is complex in that oyu must utilize strategies with units that already make sense.  Snipers make sense.  Wizards do not.  The complexity in Emperor is figuring out how to use your sniper effectively.  War3 is complex because you have to figure out WTF a wizard does in the first palce and learn the silly rules that apply to a wizard.  Sounds more like headache than fun to me.

And as far speed goes.... i highly doubt that war3 is "as fast as emperor if not faster"  ... i find that hard to believe.  I even remember reviews of war3 and saying how incredibly slow it was.

[GUNWOUNDS]

here's what i have heard about war3 from other emp players....

even the *VERY BEST* War3 players have a win percentage averaging around only 65%!  LOL   the reason is not because the community is larger.  yes, i admit that is a factor.   but even so, games like War3 are just a matter of *happening* to have *already* built the proper units to counter your enemy with before you first run into him.   there is no "skill" involved in War3 once all players in the game play at a level that is just a bit above average. it's 90% SHEER DUMB LUCK that determines the Winner in War3.   that is why War3 is a babyish POS and Emperor is King.  that is also a main reason why War3 is so popular compared to Emperor - War3 appeals directly to the Babyish Kid Market (the same one who get their jollies out of playing WindWaker ROFL) and to keep them happy, *anyone* can Win on a regular basis in War3 since Winning is not a matter of skill.

and................

War3 takes no micro at all.    you are confusing "struggling with a clunky interface" with "micro" - a common misconception. 

example:  having to shift-click then CTRL +[NUM] *every single unit you ever build* just to make him attack (otherwise he follows around your Hero and never attacks, ever   )   this is the kind of BS that newbies confuse with "micro".  that is not micro --- that is struggling with a horrendous interface.

Emp requires 100 000 000% more micro than War3.  in Emp, the actual units require micro to be effective.   in War3, the only micro required is to endlessly press TAB + [insert spell hotkey of your choice here].  ROFL.   gee, that's real hard.   TAB + one letter key, constantly, until either your army wins or the enemy does.

in early games of War3, there is more micro needed for the Hero, but at that point, the one other form of micro in WarCraft 3 is not present since there are no casters.    in late game, your Hero will be lost amongst WarCraft 3's trademark "indistinguishable jumbled mess of pixels" which occur during almost any mid-large sized battle - so therefore trying to micro a Hero at that point is pointless, still leaving just one form of micro at any given time.

any way you slice it, War3 only involves one very simplistic form of micro at any given time.  unlike Emperor, which requires a diverse spectrum of micro to be done simultaneously.

Doesnt sound too good for war3............... Emperor is King but an abandonned king.  TO be honest tho.. i am glad emperor doesnt have a ladder.... because people play like chicken shits when they are worried about their records being recorded.  In emperor your recorded isnt recorded so you can fook around and have fun.  All the ladder statistics and percentages just turn teh game into a job where everything is "official" .. just one big headache.  I wanna come home from work and relax.... not worry about what my ladder percentage is.  So in a way i am happy with emperor not being a mainstream game.  Its more like a friendly game of chess with someone you know.

Guns

[GUNWOUNDS]

Anyway ...stop telling people what to do.  We'll debate what we want to , we dont need some italian kid who pretends to be his sister telling us how to post on an emperor board.  This is an emperor board and we are discussing emperor vs War3..... a perfectly fine topic.

Damn italians ..... think they own the place.  And i thought the brazilians were bad.

[Voodoo Daddy]

I have a question. Let me preface this by saying that I know nothing about other games because I don't play them. The other day I'm in a truckstop eating supper, and I notice a guy playing a game on his laptop, which I sometimes do. So I walk over and watch for a minute. I ask him what he's playing and he says "I'm playing World of Warcraft on-line". So OK, I'm watching for a minute, and he has some kind of Dragon looking bomber and he is bombing his enemy. Then he looks up at me and says "Watch my stuff for a second" and gets up and goes to the Buffet, a couple of minutes later he comes back. So I'm thinking to myself "If I tried that at Emperor, by the time I got back my base would be gone".

So with all this talk of Micro-ing. How did he get away with that?

[veK]

ahm voodoo daddy, do you know there's a difference between "warcraft" and "world of warcraft"? warcraft 1-3 (esp. 3 - wc3) are rts games...

world of warcraft (wow) is a mmorpg. walking around for hours, fighting stupid enemies and throwing away real life. this has absolutely nothing to do with a strategy game. so it's no problem "parking" your character some place and be afk for a while...  :)

[Voodoo Daddy]

Ahh, I see. Like I said in the top of my post, I don't know about other games because I don't play any. Hell, figuring out how to stay alive online is practically a full time job for me.......