Britain - The great veil debate

[alchemi2]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6040016.stm

The hot topic of the month in England should the veil be banned/restricted in use?

I great believer in freedom of choice so long as people obey the law but i must admit i find full veils quite disconcerting and have given a great deal of thought as to why.

IMO it does segregate Muslims from the community as a whole but so does that constant statement the Muslim community.

The veil has become to symbolise to many the politicalisation of Islamic extremism.

It does further alienate Muslim women, as how do you eat or drink socially.

IMO it is a medieval mode of dress that has no real place in a modern forward thinking society.

I could argue it demeans women and reduces their value to society, as it isolates them from full interaction.

BUT i think for me it is just disconcerting not being able to see the persons full face when talking too them and brings to mind what have they got hide.

[erjin999]

How many times have you spoken to a woman with a veil on ? I know I havent and I live in london, which has a lot of women wearing it.

I also cant understand why we bang on about freedom of this and that, yet are debating forcing people to not dress the way they choose to. Why should we be allowed to say how people dress, when they dress that way for their religion? I dont particulary mind the veil, but I do find those punk type rock type people with freaky black clothes (gothics mingled in, yes :P) with almost their piercings have piercings of thier own.

But the thing is, I realise its their choice to dress like that, and even though I wouldnt want to talk to someone who treats their body like a pin cushion, I would never dream of telling them how to dress, or even to tell them they cannot dress like that.

So at the end of the day, I think the debate should be (if there is one) "do we have the right to tell people how they cannot dress in a society that prides itself on freedom ?".

[Andrew]

Banning the viel wont work, because then the oppressive husband/religion wont let his wife out of the house at all. Then Muslim woman will be really oppressed not being able to leave the house because of religious persecution.

Funny question, lets say two or more Muslim woman are at a grocery store or market, how do they know one another, to say know that the woman under the veil is there neighbor or friend if all they can see is the eyes partially (or not at all)? Or is part of the viel to not let woman communicate with others outside of the home? (Maybe they should just wear name tags?)

Sikhs in Canada are allowed to bring a ceremonial sword to high school (as they must wear this sword at all times). The courts ruled it was illegal to ban them from not wearing the sword to school.

[nemafakei]

I don't think wearing veils is particularly practical, and we've got to recognise that the increasingly strict hijab rules stem from the very patriarchal society of certain countries - so in that context, we should reject the wearing of them. However, we most definitely should not stigmatise those who wear the hijab - that's transferring our dissatisfaction with patriarchalism to individuals. On a personal level, stripping someone of their hijab is also like asking people to go down the street naked: it's a matter of modesty.

Wearing various forms of hijab has also developed new symbolism: many women choose to wear hijabi clothing simply because they want to assert their right to do so. Many muslim women feel more threatened as muslims than as women and therefore turn to the niqab and suchlike to demonstrate against this. Instances where women have been prevented from dressing how they want for no reason other than religious prejudice only fuel thisL if we want people to stop wearing the niqab, we've got to give them the very dignity they're asking for by giving them the choice - movement against the niqab must come voluntarily from among individual muslims, not from outside or 'above'.

Andrew, I read an article by someone who spent a summer in the in a secluded village wearing a niqab all the time: apparently, you quickly get used to recognising people by their eyes and the way that walk. You communicate perfectly normally, though it gets a little hot.

[alchemi2]

Erjin - On more than one occasion at various governor meetings, training sessions and at one interview.

I haven't really spoken to a veil woman in the street, i tend not to speak to strange women that veiled or not.

Personally I'm not for banning the veil, as it would cause more problems than it would solve IMO.

I still believe that for non Muslims it is disconcerting, as i stated earlier and i do think it actually impedes both integration into society and impedes the women from full interaction within society. Whilst i accept some women wear it through choice, i can't help but believe that some are not given that choice or feel they have no other choice but to wear it.

[erjin999]

Banning the viel wont work, because then the oppressive husband/religion wont let his wife out of the house at all. Then Muslim woman will be really oppressed not being able to leave the house because of religious persecution.

Have you never seen the woman being interviewed wearing a hijab (or whatever its called...niqab ?  :-) saying she wants to wear it ? They seem to prefer it to putting on a skimpy black bra under a see through white top  :P while mumbling something about decency...The crazy folks.

But what I meant was that they seem to actually want it.

I agree with both Nema and Alchoman, banning it would be the worst thing to do, but it seems that debates are occuring with people saying we should ban them. I say if we do, then anything other then a short-back-and-sides with no tatoos and no piercing should also be banned.

Personally (to help you understand a bit more aobut my mind) I dont like the way society is going, family structure is leaving us, women seem to be getting more and more naked by the summer and adverts, which children cant help but see, seem to be getting more and more borderline (pushing the boundarys of what is aceptable, I think, is the correct phrase). I am a bit old fashioned like that.

[Caid Ivik]

IMO it is a medieval mode of dress that has no real place in a modern forward thinking society.

I could argue it demeans women and reduces their value to society, as it isolates them from full interaction.

A postmodern society thinks for now, not 'forward'. Because of that, I see often people carrying swords (as well as I do) to train a medieval art of fencing, altough it really has no place in a modern society. Last year I heard a well-known american (and feminist) sociologist S.Benhabib, as she spoke about the reaction of muslim women in France, when the veil was banned in schools there. Many of them felt it a discrimination and oppression of their ethnic identity. Really, why does everybody have to conform? Because girls look better with heads afree? There is a hidden sexism in every suggestion of a man to woman's dress  ;)

[TMA_1]

I think that people are just simply afraid of what this kind of activity might spark.

Many in England that I have heard and talked to seem to fear the fact that Muslims hold a lot of sway in the economy of England, and that their populations are growing dramatically. I have heard statistics on the growth of mosques in England, and even I, an American, can understand why people are unsettled by these facts. Not to say that the acceptance of other cultures is a bad thing at all. It is just the fact that when you have a culture that is so different from the average western culture, it is bound to lead to problems, especially with that culture growing so dramatically.

I also realize that many muslims in the west arent as extreme as others, but I do believe with all of the stuff that is happening in the Middle East, that the radical sentiments will grow in popularity. I think that the issue of muslim solidarity and the growth of muslim fundimentalism has a lot of danger points, and should not be overlooked. I think overlooking the issue is just brushing the issue under the rug, fearing to be pegged as a racist or a nationalist I believe will  (and already is in many circles) create such a stigma on a person, that it will make the person a social outcast. Reminds me almost of the stigma attatched to those who were communists or were sympathetic with communist concepts during the early years of the cold war in America. I think it is extremely bad to live in a society where one has to constantly watch the words that they use.

[alchemi2]

Erjin - I agree that women running round in bikini's all the time is extreme and would be just as impractical but that is the point it is extreme.

Women should have the right to wear what they want within reason, they should have to comply with company dress codes and health and safety regulations the same as the rest of us.

I remember the great turban debates, whilst i agreed that Sikhs should be allowed to wear them, i disagreed that they should be exempt from wearing crash helmets. To me and many other make the choice if your religious dress is so important to you, then fine take a bus or get a car but do not expect to ride a motorbike.

A hardly think referring to fencing as a comparison is relevant, many people here are period reenactors but they would be walking around everday in armour and if you walked through the streets here wearing you foil at your side you would be arrested.

Muslims have to except that wearing the full veil does isolate them and due to the present climate it is seen as being a fundamentalist, which unfortunately rightly or wrongly many associate with extremism. Therefore non Muslim will view them with suspicion.

Strangely enough having chatted with a couple of Muslim friends, they too view the full veil as primitive but staunchly defend the right to wear it but think it shouldn't be all the time.

[erjin999]

Women should have the right to wear what they want within reason, they should have to comply with company dress codes and health and safety regulations the same as the rest of us.

I agree, so what saftey regulation does the veil go against ? Simple prejudices ? People equate obvious symbols of religion as signs of extremism. Yet the 9/11 guys were dressed and behaved as normal integrated westerners.

I dont think these women exercising their right to dress as they want should pay the price of our prejudices.

The only time I can think of veiled women being involved in anything like that is the Russian school hostage thing.

[alchemi2]

Obviously the the full veil outfit has certain health and safety implications, limited vision the presence of mass fabric etc.

Most demonstrations feature women in the niqab, hence the association with radicals.

[Dunenewt]

I'm against the veil, because if I want to speak to someone, I want to speak to a person, not a curtain.

[VigilVirus]

Dunenewt, you have a choice whether to speak to a person wearing a hijab. No one is forcing you to.

As for banning hijabs in UK, it's ridiculous to believe that would solve anything. I doubt that you would find many muslim women in UK that are forced to wear the hijab against their own will. Therefore it makes the hijab a person's individual choice and thereby the woman wearing it accepts all the consequences that come with it.

As for safety implications, I'd think that women wearing skimpy outfits would be far more subjected to harm statistically.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm against the veil, because if I want to speak to someone, I want to speak to a person, not a curtain.

I agree ... but to a muslim woman this would sound like:

"I'm against blouses and bras... because if i want to speak to someone i want to stare at their tits not their clothes."

[Edric O]

So at the end of the day, I think the debate should be (if there is one) "do we have the right to tell people how they cannot dress in a society that prides itself on freedom ?".

The barrage of "freedom"-related propaganda that we are exposed to on a daily basis often makes it difficult to see the many ways in which our society does in fact restrict freedom - and which are often quite good and reasonable. For example, we already tell people how they can or cannot dress in public. You do not have the freedom to walk around naked.

There is, in fact, a Western dress code. It states that you are not allowed to expose your genitals in public, and women are not allowed to expose their breasts in public. The Muslim dress code is not fundamentally different from this; it only happens to be more restrictive. Notice one interesting common feature: Both the Western and Muslim dress codes place more restrictions on women than on men (in the Western code, women cannot expose their breasts, but men can).

You cannot say you are opposed to all dress codes unless you are prepared to accept public nudity (or people walking around in full suits of armour, for that matter). I am not prepared to accept anything like that; in fact I believe the Western dress code has become far too permissive in recent years (though the Muslim dress code is, on the other hand, too restrictive).

I support the right of Muslim women to wear the veil for two reasons: First, I see no harm that could possibly come of it. Second, one thing that Western society certainly needs is more modesty. Perhaps the meeting of Muslim and Western dress codes will cause both cultures to converge towards a common ground, with Muslims getting less restrictive and Westerners getting less permissive.

[GUNWOUNDS]

you brought up a good point Edrico.......

Women find men's pecs to be erotic, yet men can expose themselves.   

Men find women's breasts erotic yet women can NOT expose themselves.

Why? .....because men's nipples are non-functional?  I doubt we are banning women from baring their breasts due to functionality as we certainly let women expose themselves to breast feed.  Its pure sexism.

Its basically a sexual double standard where women get to enjoy themselves by seeing men's pecs for free,  and men have to go to a strip club to pay cash to see a woman's breasts.

Or it could be viewed as a sexual double standard where men get to parade around unhindered by upper body clothing.... while women have spend money on restrictive fabric, such as blouses and bras and then wrap them around their upper body, causing them to overheat and restrict their breathing, as well as general discomfort.

We've got our own double standards and we are badgering the muslims for their double standards.   Quite inappropriate i think.

[Dunenewt]

Turkey and Tunisia have both banned the veil.

[Caid Ivik]

Turkey and Tunisia have both banned the veil.

That's why we don't let them into EU, they are still too undemocratic ;D

[erjin999]

Turkey and Tunisia have both banned the veil.

Well, why on earth didnt someone say so before ? Whats to debate then ?  ;D  ::)

[alchemi2]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6079798.stm

Dr Abdul Bary Mailk, president of the Bradford and Leeds Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, said wearing the full face veil, or niqab, was not an obligation under Islam.

I found that part very interesting. I agree that many women could dress more modestly, as many men could dress more smartly but the need to cover the face still evades me.

[Acriku]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6079798.stm

Dr Abdul Bary Mailk, president of the Bradford and Leeds Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, said wearing the full face veil, or niqab, was not an obligation under Islam.

I found that part very interesting. I agree that many women could dress more modestly, as many men could dress more smartly but the need to cover the face still evades me.

I'm sure they were referring to a sect of Islam, rather than speak for the entire religion. Women want to wear the veil, who the hell cares if they do. How can we fight the Taliban for oppressing the women when we have not grown up and strived past those prejudices as well? How can we that we are better than the Taliban in that aspect?

A little piece of advice on freedom: It doesn't matter if there is no reason to wear a veil, what matters is that we have the freedom to wear it if we want.

[erjin999]

It doesn't matter if there is no reason to wear a veil, what matters is that we have the freedom to wear it if we want.

Thats what I was about to say as I thought the same thing from reading the post above yours. It doesnt need to be motivated by religion, in the same way punk type mohicans neednt be motivated by anything in particular (although someone will tell me they are !).

Alchoman, the Ahmadiyya's are a sect within Islam (in fact, most non-Ahmadiyya Muslims reject them as they have changed some very fundamental parts of the religion) but I believe they are also a pretty small minority. This is my understanding on Ahmadiyya's.

[alchemi2]

A little piece of advice on freedom: It doesn't matter if there is no reason to wear a veil, what matters is that we have the freedom to wear it if we want.

I agree and I'm not saying veils can't be worn, my main point is still that the veil is seen as an obstacle to integration and this has too be recognised as such by the Muslim community.

And i personally find it disconcerting as I've said before but can't put a totally logical reason together as to why that is!

[VigilVirus]

I agree and I'm not saying veils can't be worn, my main point is still that the veil is seen as an obstacle to integration and this has too be recognised as such by the Muslim community.

And i personally find it disconcerting as I've said before but can't put a totally logical reason together as to why that is!

Why would the Muslim community want to be integrated into the Christian one?

[nemafakei]

Precisely. Integration just by trying to 'Christianise' muslims won't and shouldn't work. But that's often perceived as the only offer as far as integration goes.

I think the argument "the veil is seen as an obstacle to integration" is on very dodgy ground. Mainly because the refusal to accept people weaing the niqab is at least as much to blame - muslim women should not be expected just to discard hijab because it makes Jack Straw nervous. The biggest step towads integration is for Jack Straw to stop freaking out when he sees a niqab.

I mean, really, it's all about social conditioning. I do get unnerved when I see people with brightly-coloured hair and lots of piercings - but that's my problem, not theirs (though I may find the effort they go to rather silly).