Israel Issues

[Andrew]

Israeli air strike kills 54, including 37 children

But Israel says it was a mistake, therefore they are not responsible for it happening and it makes it ok for them to continue bombing wherever they feel like.  ::)

And don't give me the bullshit "b-b-b-but the terrorists kill indiscriminantly!", because if Israel is killing whoever they want, they are no better than terrorists.

I bet those children were terrorists!

[Purge]

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel's prime minister says a Lebanese village where dozens of people were killed in an air strike has been a launching pad for Hezbollah missiles.

Ehud Olmert said at Israel's weekly Cabinet meeting that "the army did not get an order to strike at Lebanese civilians."

Israeli missiles struck Qana early today, flattening houses on top of sleeping residents. Civil defense workers said up to 50 civilians who had sought refuge in a building that collapsed were killed.

The official says at least 27 children have been found in the rubble.

The attack on Qana came as heavy fighting erupted along the border between Hezbollah and the Israeli army.

Israel doesn't just target civillian areas.  If they are getting attacked from somewhere, those immidiately become attacks they must stop.  So if Israel started attacking Hezbollah from in and around the Dome of the Rock, and Hezbollah ended up flattening the Temple Mount and all the Muslims and Israelis around while trying to combat the Israeli army it wouldn't be Israel's fault?

And I want to make it clear again that Kofi Annan is one of the biggest scumbags alive.  He showed once again that he is more worried about condemning Israel at every turn than objectively investigating before he makes his stupid comments.

Like irresponsibly declaring that Israel purposely attacked and killed the UN, when an email from the VERY Canadian who was killed himself says the exact opposite.

Kofi Annan and the UN become a bigger joke every day in regards to their relationship with Israel.

[Shiroko]

I bet those children were terrorists!

Ooh, nice. No one said Israel is not responsible. But Hizbullah is more responsible.

IAF claims it has videos of rockets being stored in that building. They should officialy comment in a press conference about it in an hour or so. Maybe they'll be kind to share them with us (They're never happy about showing capablities...)

[VigilVirus]

This is really quite ridiculous. If there's a Hezbollah militant in the middle of a crowd of a thousand people, are you going to firebomb them all?

[exatreide]

if that terrorist has a rocket propelled gernade and has it aimed towards a israeli hospital, and those 1000 people around him know what he's going to do.

burn baby burn.

[Shiroko]

This is really quite ridiculous. If there's a Hezbollah militant in the middle of a crowd of a thousand people, are you going to firebomb them all?

That's a good dilemma. Anyhow the orders for pilots are to abort attacks if innocents are detected.

An innocent BTW doesn't really apply for I have a room in the back with Katyushas, but the pilot would have U-turned if he knew those are the results.

The problem is worse when it is a rocket launcher shooting right now from within civilians (The attack from last night was on ammunation I understand) in this case I myself would take the guy down, while going for the minimal colleteral possible for some reasons:

I don't view someone who is shielding terrorists as an innocent.

According to Geneva conventions its legal and the responsibility is of the side using the innocents as shields.

In the end my goal is to save Israelis, prior to saving others.

[Mihail]

Hey Ex, would you try to stop a deranged militant with an RPG? If you were an unarmed civilian? Would you? And I think those people weren't supporting Hezbollah or honestly didn't give a shit about what was happening in the conflict since they had their own problems. Do you really think little kids knew where and when the Hezbollah militants would fire rockets into Israel? I think not.  They might know it was in or around their town, but not much more. It wasn't like those 37 children were sheltering Hezbollah, they were sheltering themselves and trying to survive. All they got in return was a precision guided missile, with love from Israel.

By the way, your "burn baby burn" proves just how gung-ho you are, and how little you care about civilian casualties. Why don't you show a little more tact next time? It's not like I or anyone else who opposes Israel's invasion goes around saying "LOL Israel got rocketed lol!"  ::)

[exatreide]

Gung ho? About the defense of Israel hell yea I am. Hezbollah fires rockets into Israeli hospital's and schools, Hezbolah sucide bombs israel.

A hezbolah agent hides with 1000 people around him, those people knew what was going on, those people had a chance to evacuate, those people had leaflets dropped in their neighborhood telling them the danger. Any "little kids" that were in a war zone, and their parents knew the risks of having them their, or Hezbollah hid behind them, hoping Israel wouldn't strike.

How about the Lebbenonease military try to stop hezbollah to? How about they stop the flow of arms and recruits to hezbolah from Syria and through Turkey.

For Every lebenease child that dies it's a tragedy for the israeli's.

For every Israeli child that's killed by Hezbollah, it's a victory and cause for celebration. Do you hear Hezbollah apologizing for killing women and children? No, their cut throats and killers that have to be destroyed in order for the state of Israel and the Jewish people to survive.

I stand by comment, burn baby burn.

[VigilVirus]

How incredibly narrow minded. All the points made by you to justify your rather childish remark have been responded to earlier in the thread, so I won't bother repeating it - read up.

[Mihail]

So you stoop to their level, ex? "Fuck them, they don't care about us so why should we care about them?"

And what if, as I said before, those people didn't have the means of getting away? I'm pretty sure many fled, but what about those wounded or old or orphaned or without a means for transportation? Do you think the children wanted to be there, if, like you said, Hezbollah forced them to shelter them or let them hide behind them? For God's sake man, think it through a bit more, and stop being so inconsiderate. Your "too bad, too sad" attitude makes you essentially no better than Hezbollah. And don't aske me if you're the one launching rockets at hospitals and schools, because you're not, but your indifference to the civilian deaths is uncannily likely to Hezbollah's.

[exatreide]

I belive you guys are mis reading what I'm saying. I don't support the killing of children, and I Don't support the killing of innocent civilans. But I don't think that just because someone fires a rocket capabul of killing tens or hundreds of israeli's that we shouldn't kill him because he stands next to a apartment complex that may and or may not have people in it.

Israel has exercised great restraint, from the dropping of leaflets to warn people, to not bombing when civilan presense is spotted. They have the capability to fire bomb, carpet bomb, shell, the whole area with conventional dumb bombs but the Israel's value life.

Unlike Hezbollah.

[chatfsh]

What?  No chatter over the 24hr Israeli cease fire?  They are doing this to allow humanitarian aid to come in and to investigate the bombing incident in Kafr Qana.  Surely this demonstrates restraint on the Israeli

[Mihail]

Oh? ??? I wasn't aware of a ceasefire. We'll just see how this turns out...

EDIT: Well, it looks like Condy isn't going after all. :P

[VigilVirus]

Honestly, Rice hasn't done a single thing competently that I've read about, so I don't expect her to reach any sort of agreement.

[chatfsh]

Honestly, Rice hasn't done a single thing competently that I've read about, so I don't expect her to reach any sort of agreement.

Like I said...I'm not holding my breath.  But stranger things have happened.

[Purge]

As far as I know there is no "cease fire" and never was.  Israel agreed to halt air raids, but never all fighting.  And the halt on air raids was accompanied by an anti-tank missile Hezbollah bombed an Israeli tank with, which pretty much spelled the end of any halt of air raids.

[Andrew]

Yep, Israel 48 hour ceasefire didn't last long.

They decided to bomb a vehicle holding a lebanon soldier, which they thought was holding a high ranking Hezbellah leader. Oops once again they apologize.

Maybe if they actually targeted Hezbollah, everything would be fine, but it seems to take 20 wrong (civilian) deaths for every one right (Hezbollah) death.

Maybe if Israel didn't put such a high value on its people (like 100 Hezbollah in exchange for every single Israel soldier in trades in the past), Hezbolla wouldn't want to kidnap Israel soldiers.

Also it was 10 years ago that Israel also bombed Quana (where the civilians were killed yesterday) and killed hundreds of civilians.

[Purge]

Wrong.

There was *never* a cease-fire, and Israel has maintained since the beginning there would be no cease-fires, or anything short of a permanent agreement that Hezbollah couldn't just backslide off.  In fact, they made it clear they planned to continue their offensive, but would hold off air strikes for 48 hours - depending on "operational developments".

However, Hezbollah put an end to this when it nailed an Israeli tank with anti-tank missiles.

And again, these people and cities were told to move north immidiately almost three weeks ago.  Many were there and are moving *now* because they didn't listen earlier.  It is a shame innocent people have died, but they were told to move.  You can keep coming back to blame Israel, but they are doing what nobody else would do, and unfortunately when they very seriously told the citizens to evacuate, while hundreds of thousands were smart and did listen, others were stubborn and chose to stay.

[Mihail]

Wrong.

There was *never* a cease-fire, and Israel has maintained since the beginning there would be no cease-fires, or anything short of a permanent agreement that Hezbollah couldn't just backslide off.  In fact, they made it clear they planned to continue their offensive, but would hold off air strikes for 48 hours - depending on "operational developments".

However, Hezbollah put an end to this when it nailed an Israeli tank with anti-tank missiles.

And again, these people and cities were told to move north immidiately almost three weeks ago.  Many were there and are moving *now* because they didn't listen earlier.  It is a shame innocent people have died, but they were told to move.  You can keep coming back to blame Israel, but they are doing what nobody else would do, and unfortunately when they very seriously told the citizens to evacuate, while hundreds of thousands were smart and did listen, others were stubborn and chose to stay.

Would you want to just get up and go to some hellhole refugee camp because some invaders told you to get out? To leave everything you have, everything you own, and go away for God knows how long? And remember, the people whos houses are leveled, whos all the material possesions that they own in this world are destroyed, don't get paid compensation by Israel. Fun, huh?  ::)

[Andrew]

Israel admits it meant to hit UN post, but says it was an accident

Israel vowed yesterday to keep up its military offensive against Hezbollah, as one of the country's senior generals said the air strike that killed four unarmed peacekeepers, including Canadian Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, at a United Nations post on Tuesday was deliberate but accidental.

Brigadier-General Shuki Shahar, deputy chief of the Israeli military's Northern Command, said soldiers in the field had accidentally called in the co-ordinates of the UN base and that the air strike had been approved up the chain of command.

"Sometimes mistakes are made and innocent people are hit," Brig.-Gen. Shahar said. "We do the best we can. We didn't recognize it as their base."

That base has been there for 30 years. How the hell do you not recognize it?

And refugees can not leave, unless they walk. If they get in a vehicle Israel will blow it up because "terrorists" could be in it.

[Purge]

Would you want to just get up and go to some hellhole refugee camp because some invaders told you to get out? To leave everything you have, everything you own, and go away for God knows how long? And remember, the people whos houses are leveled, whos all the material possesions that they own in this world are destroyed, don't get paid compensation by Israel. Fun, huh?  ::)

To avoid getting killed?  You bet your ass.  What would be the point in staying unless you don't value your life or the lives you are looking after?  Boo-hoo on the subject of possessions.  Stick around just so you can die with your possessions rather than live without them?

That is selfish.

[Purge]

Israel admits it meant to hit UN post, but says it was an accident

That base has been there for 30 years. How the hell do you not recognize it?

And refugees can not leave, unless they walk. If they get in a vehicle Israel will blow it up because "terrorists" could be in it.

Two weeks ago Israel spend Friday and Saturday sitting on the border, days after dropped leaflets and making numerous calls for the southern Lebanese to evacuate.  They had plenty of time to leave when Israel told them to be evacuated.  Thousands of Americans left.  Hundreds of thousands of Lebanese moved north.  We're all aware it's difficult to seek refuge *now* but they were instructed to do it weeks ago.  Israel didn't drop leaflets because it *might* effect the cities, they dropped leaflets because they wanted no lives at risks other than theirs' and their target's.

You guys want to  post every death Lebanon experiences.  That's okay, but it doesn't change the fact that these people should not be in southern Lebanon, and that they were told to evacuate, were given time to evacuate, and were a minority as most people took the warning to heart.

[nemafakei]

"Stick around just so you can die with your possessions rather than live without them?

That is selfish."

Um, selfishness doesn't enter into it. Either you stay and may be killed in the fighting, or you flee and have a lower chance of being killed in the fighting, but nowhere to go, no-one to take care of them, and almost certainly no livelihood to return to. Never mind the fact that it's simply impossible to evacuate half a country - and ludicrous, given the fact that bombs have been dropped on the north as well. I'm sorry, but prior warning is no excuse.

Never mind the huge humanitarian problem of massive internal displacement, or the issue that if Hezbollah didn't have south Lebanon in its grip before, it will certainly do so once Israel has left.

[Purge]

Selfishness is the *sole* motivation.  Regard for yourself and/or family doesn't factor into it when you choose to stay and test the odds of surviving explosions just so if you survive you might have some "things".  And fleeing doesn't mean "a lower chance of getting killed", it means getting out of the way of getting killed altogether.

And nowhere to go?  Puhlease.  There are huge, empty refuges right next door in Jordan just waiting to be used, food waiting to be eaten, aid waiting to be applied.  They are *empty*.  So don't give me this crap about nowhere to go.  They set up these refuges, Israel made numerous calls to evacuate through leaflets and announcements, and hundreds of thousands took the warning and left.

You can't plead ignorance where there was a serious warning and hundreds of thousands of people followed the instructions and got out of there.  Let's be rational and realistic here instead of just trying to attack Israel from any angle we can.

As for Hezbollah, as Israel announced, Israel isn't leaving until five objectives are agreed upon and met.

# ensure that Hezbollah will never return to the Israeli-Lebanese border;

# obtain the release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah guerrillas July 12;

# stop Hezbollah from shooting missiles and rockets into Israel (nobody mentions the thousands of rockets and missiles that have been fired at Israel);

# prevent the Lebanon-based militant group from rearming with missiles and rockets from Syria and Iran; and

# free Lebanon from Hezbollah's control.

Israel isn't leaving until it's clear Hezbollah is coming nowhere near their border.

[nemafakei]

"And fleeing doesn't mean "a lower chance of getting killed", it means getting out of the way of getting killed altogether."

Utter rubbish. As has already been pointed out, bombs have fallen on all sorts of places, including refugees.

And it's all very nice in our cushioned world to say 'it's just "things"', but without certain "things", we will die. I'm not talking about jewellry and clothes, I'm talking about trade tools, livestock, shelter, water access and treatment, the basics of life.

"There are huge, empty refuges right next door in Jordan just waiting to be used, food waiting to be eaten, aid waiting to be applied. "

How on earth are they supposed to get there? Jordan doesn't even border Lebanon! The roads to Syria have been bombed, so they can't go round that way, the airport's no more, there's a naval blockade, and the only way out is through Israel.

"You can't plead ignorance where there was a serious warning and hundreds of thousands of people followed the instructions and got out of there.  Let's be rational and realistic here instead of just trying to attack Israel from any angle we can."

What? I mentioned nothing whatsoever of pleading ignorance. I'm not attacking Israel from any and every angle, as you so nicely demonstrate by bringing up an angle I've NOT used.