Israel Issues

[Purge]

::)

It will never happen.  Israel is theirs, they aren't going anywhere.  It's nobody's right to take it from them, especially for a bullshit reason like "because the idiot Arabs can't stop trying to provoke the Jews".  That is their issue, not Israels.  Except when they bring Israel into it, at which time Israel is more than capable of handling itself.  Surrounding nations can't expect inaction when they attack Israel.  There are consequences like there are for attacking any country unprovoked.

And a good way to not get hit by fire is to not drive in a war zone, especially one in which Hezbollah is attacking the Israelis from civillian areas.

[Andrew]

WTF, watching national news now, Israel bombed the UN ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

And it killed 1 Canadian. This was no mistake.

So UN is now a terrorist organization?

These observers are observing possible crimes against humanity, so Israel bombs them so they cannot report these crimes.

[exatreide]

It was a mistake, Why would Israel bomb the UN? That would be retarded.

Yay i'm glad my little topic is chugging on 5 pages.

[Edric O]

It will never happen.  Israel is theirs, they aren't going anywhere.  It's nobody's right to take it from them, especially for a bullshit reason like "because the idiot Arabs can't stop trying to provoke the Jews".  That is their issue, not Israels.  Except when they bring Israel into it, at which time Israel is more than capable of handling itself.  Surrounding nations can't expect inaction when they attack Israel.  There are consequences like there are for attacking any country unprovoked.

You don't seem to get it. In the long run, this is a war that Israel cannot win. So, Israel can either keep fighting - and winning - for a few more decades or so, only to be finally overwhelmed and annihilated in the end, or it can try to find a different way out of the mess.

If Israel stubbornly continues along its current path, then I expect that it will be destroyed within my lifetime. Not any time soon, but probably before the 2060's. And if that happens, I will very loudly shout "I told you so".

And a good way to not get hit by fire is to not drive in a war zone, especially one in which Hezbollah is attacking the Israelis from civillian areas.

So now we're blaming innocent bystanders for getting in the way of a bullet? That's not just absurd, it's idiotic. Civilians don't have a responsibility to get out of the soldiers' way. Soldiers have a responsibility to avoid shooting civilians.

[Mihail]

And a good way to not get hit by fire is to not drive in a war zone, especially one in which Hezbollah is attacking the Israelis from civillian areas.

What? And leave all those wounded and maimed there to die? Hello, saving people is the duty of the Red Cross. They can't and won't just say, "Oh, Israelis and Hezbollah are exchanging fire there, better not go."

It'd be like medics in a war, on a battlefield saying that they're not going to go treat those wounded who can't  move or be moved at the present time. By the way, civilians don't have to evacuate or hide or flee when in a warzone - it's NOT their responsibility. How the, it IS the soldiers' responsibility to be careful abou who it shoots and bombs.

It was a mistake, Why would Israel bomb the UN? That would be intellegent forum membered.

Ex, read the article. The team was in the observation post. Israelis shelled it several times. The UN force - Hah! Nevermind, it's not there anymore. Anyway, Israel deliberately shelled that observation post. The BBC and other news agencies are kind of pulling a limited Big Brother tactic here. Post original story, untainted. If bosses and other higher-ups don't like it, edit it out to make it look accidental.

Anyway, what was originally posted was that Israel shelled the post several times, the UN men retreated into a bunker beneath the post, and there were killed. Israel then shelled a rescue team that was going to try and dig those UN peacekeepers out. Nice, huh?

::)

And it was confirmed, not faulty reporting. I know I can't prove it, so don't ask me to, but I know it and that is good enough for me.

EDIT: So, Ex, what is this, eh?

The UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon' date=' known as Unifil, has been operational in the border area since 1978 and is currently 2,000 strong.

The BBC's Daniel Lak at the UN in New York says that the observers had taken shelter in a bunker under their base because there had already been 14 Israeli artillery attacks on their position, causing the French general who commands Unifil to call Israel's military asking them to desist.

However, as they sheltered the bunker was hit by a single heavy bomb from an Israeli war plane and four unarmed observers, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, were killed.

A UN rescue team also came under fire as it searched the rubble for survivors. [/quote']

Accident, hmm? Not intentional, eh? IDF would neeever fire on UN, oh? ::)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215692.stm

[Andrew]

Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

So the UN peacekeepers reported to Israel that Israel was bombing them, and Israel kept bombing them until they would shutup.

That outpost was there since 1970's, I doubt it just got in the way of a precision bomb after 6 hours of shelling.

I'm sure Israel will find a way to make them look like terrorists.

[Shiroko]

Shit happens

(But Irealize that it doesn't make you happy, so welcome to the shitty world where people miss and indetify the wrong targets, just like yesterday an Israeli chopper shot a missle at an Israeli force, so you can now happily blame Israel for killing IDF soldiers indiscrimently... Or you can grow and realize Hizbullah hidtouts don't have a sign on thier roof, and that shit happens and the wrong stuff gets hit. You'll be an idiot to think Israel did it on purpose, since it obviously cannot gain anything from shooting a lebanese civilian or a UN soldier or an ambulance, it can only lose from this happening, so you either just write a lot of crap or honeslt believe all the Israeli military is plain idiot, because that's what is required from someone to shoot himself in the leg on purpose...)

[Mihail]

What you fail to realise, Shiroko, is that at least in this case, shit does not just happen. Shit does NOT happen after being told ten times to stop, that there was a friendly force there where they were shelling. Shit does NOT happen with a precision guided missile. Either they were aiming for the bunker or weren't. The fact that they WERE aiming for the bunker with a PRECISION GUIDED MISSILE after being told TEN times to stop proves that it WAS NOT an accident. Why won't you accept that, Shiroko? Can't bear the thought of the pure, virgin IDF intentionally killing civilians/non-combatants?  ::)

[Edric O]

I highly doubt that the IDF would ever kill civilians or UN personnel on purpose. As Shiroko pointed out, Israel has nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing such a thing.

The IDF may be a lot of things, but it is not sadistic. It is just plain careless and irresponsible. The IDF is trying to do the right thing, and their hearts are mostly in the right place, but they're doing a bad job of it.

[ordos45]

Hezbollah has targetted Israeli hospitals, I would fire on Lebanese hospitals if I were them.  Equivalent retaliation.  After all, people are all up in arms about Israel's attacks being 'over the top' and 'too much force'.  Targeting hospitals for the targeting of hospitals would just be an equivalent retaliation on the part of the IDF.

However, it holds itself to those pesky ethics.  Or did I misconstrue all those leaflets warning civilians to flee sites about to be bombed?  The problem with the IDF in this fight is not that they are sadistic, not that they are evil.  It's that they're not evil enough to match Hezbollah.

Edit:  Also, work tonight, surgery on Friday, may not be back on until Monday or Tuesday, so if anyone replies to my points, you may be waiting.

[Mihail]

All right, I admit it. Intentionally killing was a bit strong, but the IDF is doing a horribly sloppy job of everything and are very reckless. I would still like to know, though, why they continued to fire on the post even after being told 10 times that it was a UN post. I hope it will be cleared up soon in the investigation that is being launched, but as of now I've lost any of the belief that Israel could do some good in this campaign.

By the way, Edric, you are wrong about the sadistic part. During the Lebanese civil war, there was one incident that was veeery sadistic. Israel and the Phalange(A Christian militant group) retook a part of Beirut from the Muslim militias. That part of Beirut had a refugee camp in it, and in one night, the Phalange massacred hundreds of refugees in that camp, the IDF conviniently having seen nothing. The Israelis didn't do anything, per se, but this is the thing: They didn't do anything to stop it, either. I don't have the book at hand, but it was published by a journalist who worked for reputable news agencies like AP and Reuters. In his book he wrote that after the incident, his friend came by the place he was staying, gave him photographs of the massacre, and told him(the author) that "...that was it. He had had enough, and was leaving."(Quoted from the book) You can imagine that the photographs had to be pretty powerful for someone to quit just like that.

Now I remember, the book was called "From Black September to Desert Storm". Claude Salhani. It's a good book, documenting all kinds of criseses in the ME.

Anyway, in short, Israel has, at least, turned a blind eye to some atrocities before.

[Mihail]

Hezbollah has targetted Israeli hospitals, I would fire on Lebanese hospitals if I were them.  Equivalent retaliation.  After all, people are all up in arms about Israel's attacks being 'over the top' and 'too much force'.  Targeting hospitals for the targeting of hospitals would just be an equivalent retaliation on the part of the IDF.

However, it holds itself to those pesky ethics.  Or did I misconstrue all those leaflets warning civilians to flee sites about to be bombed?  The problem with the IDF in this fight is not that they are sadistic, not that they are evil.  It's that they're not evil enough to match Hezbollah.

Edit:  Also, work tonight, surgery on Friday, may not be back on until Monday or Tuesday, so if anyone replies to my points, you may be waiting.

But good God, it isn't like Hezbollah is fucking endorsed by the Lebanese government! The political wing is, but the military wing of Hezbollah is NOT sanctioned by the government. The IDF IS, it is the national army of Israel. Fine, fire on Lebanese hospitals, Israel will then be no better than Syria or Iran. By the way, if you use the 'equivalent retaliation' argument, then the Palestinians are right in trying to destroy Israel and take back the Holy Land. The Jews had the Holy Land first, did they? Well, what about the Caananites they forced out? What about Jericho? After all, those people were the ancestors of modern-day Muslims. Equivalent retaliation, right? The Jews take the Holy Land from Caananites. Jews lose land, Caananites reoccupy. Jews get land back in 1947, Caananites(Now Muslims) are forced out. It only makes sense, then, that now the Muslim people should reoccupy the Holy Land and force the Jewish people out, then, eh?  ::)

[exatreide]

You would think after loosing in 1948, 1956, 1968,1973, and 1983 the Arabs would realize that you can not defeat Israel through military or terrorist means. Kind of thick headed don't you think?

[Dunenewt]

I'm enjoying this thread :)

We haven't had one like it for a while.

[Mihail]

You would think after loosing in 1948, 1956, 1968,1973, and 1983 the Arabs would realize that you can not defeat Israel through military or terrorist means. Kind of thick headed don't you think?

Israel: 7,026,000

Arab world:

Iran - 68,467,413

Syria - 19,043,000

Saudi Arabia - 25,192,720

Yemen - 20,975,000

Lebanon - 3,874,050

Oman - 3,102,229

What is thickheaded, ex, is thinking that Israel's winning streak can last forever. The Arabs are getting smarter and better armed; it isn't the hastily put-together invasions of decades ago. Only Egypt recognises Israel, and only Jordan has a non-agression pact with it. If you add Egypt into the list of Israel's enemies, you get 74,033,000 more people against a country of 7 million. Face it, ex, one day Israel will start to lose. Either the army will be stretched thin, or there will be insufficient funds for weapons(AS I think you know, tourism is big in Israel. As the region gets more and more dangerous, the tourists stop coming. That'll put a big dent in Israel's economy.) And that is when the Arab countries will invade, and win.

Of course, right now only Syria and Iran are openly hostile. Still, if the put their hearts to it, they could seriously weaken or perhaps even destroy the Israeli state. Ever heard of the Iran-Iraq war? In that bloody war, Iran had a tactic called 'human waves'. I don't think I need to describe to you what that means. And then you have terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah using guerilla tactics and having very strong grassroot support among the Palestinian people.

What is thickheaded, ex, is believing Israel 'cannot be defeated'. Guess what? In the 6 Day War, Israel was caught totally off guard. The Arab coalition had successfully planned and carried out an invasion of Israel without the Mossad or any other intelligence agency findoig out about it.In that war, the Arabs realised that Israel could not be defeated, and Israel realised that it could. Although the Arabs lost that war, it is entirely possible that another attack like that could overcome Israel. In this day and age, with bigger, bang-ier bombs being developed and new, advanced technologies being thought up, the course of a battle - or even a war - can be altered simply if one side has the advantage of surprise on the other.

Israel can't keep winning.

[Dunenewt]

Israel: 7,026,000

Arab world:

Iran - 68,467,413

Syria - 19,043,000

Saudi Arabia - 25,192,720

Yemen - 20,975,000

Lebanon - 3,874,050

Oman - 3,102,229

Let's revise that list.

Has nukes?

Israel: Yes.

Arab world: No.

Israel also has advanced US planes such as the F-15 and F-16, as well as its own fighter Kfir, all of these are better than anything the Arabs have.  They also have one of the best tanks in the world in the Merkava IV.

[Mihail]

Let's revise that list.

Has nukes?

Israel: Yes.

Arab world: No.

Israel also has advanced US planes such as the F-15 and F-16, as well as its own fighter Kfir, all of these are better than anything the Arabs have.  They also have one of the best tanks in the world in the Merkava IV.

If Israel uses nukes, it'll have more than the Arab world on its ass, and not even the US will be able to save it. And there is no use of big, fancy machines if there aren't enough men to operate them or if there is urban fighting in Israel. Say Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, what have you, go just fooking crazy in Israel. Say there is urban fighting. What will Israel do? Use the F-16's to bomb their own cities? O RLY? It is entirely possible that if war starts the terrorist groups will take to the streets in Israel, where they have lots of supporters. What if they're sheltered by Palestinian sympathizers, eh? Israel bombs a house because they think militants are being sheltered there. Whoops, nevermind, it's only a dead family of a grandma and grandpa and five kids. Meh, shit happens.

Tanks and airplanes won't win you wars, you know. You also need manpower. And manpower is what the terrorists keep getting more and more of all the time while Israel's manpower is being stretched thinner and thinner.

[Dunenewt]

If there's an all out military Jihad against Israel, I think USA, Australia, Canada, and the UK would step up to the plate and wipe them off the face of the Earth if they wanted to.  What good is 1,000 militants against one Merkava IV crewed by 4 Israelis? No good at all.

[Mihail]

What good is 1,000 militants against one Merkava IV crewed by 4 Israelis? No good at all.

You did not just say that. Let's say, for the sake of comparison, that Israel had 4 soldiers and 1 Merkava IV tank in its army. The tank and the four soldiers were up against 1000 militants armed with AK47's/RPG's, 1 grenade each, and a knife. Do you HONESTLY think the Israelis would come out victorious? ???

[Dunenewt]

Most probably they would.  Grenades and AK47s would have no effect, and a knife would do nothing at all, and  the RPGs might knock it out, depending on the battlefield.

[Mihail]

Most probably they would.  Grenades and AK47s would have no effect, and a knife would do nothing at all, and  the RPGs might knock it out, depending on the battlefield.

No tank can not come under sustained fire from RPGs without breaking down sometime. Once its broken down, simple - open the hatch, throw a grenade in, and poof! There go your soldiers and tank. Of course they could lock the hatch, but they can't stay in there forever, and most likely the tank would be on fire after being hit multiple times by RPGs. With thanks sweltering hot in any case, especially in the Middle East, they would soon pass out from the heat or die from asphyxiation(smoke). By the way, a tank is essentially useless at close range. You can't take out all of the militants just by shelling, they're not going to stay in a clump or something.  ::) What're you going to do with your supercoolawesome Merkava once the militants are standing a few feet away from it, eh? I can think of a plethora of ways of how to disable the tank/ kill the crew. For example, RPG the tracks, RPG the barrel, RPG everything, it won't last forever. This one might be a little bit of fantasy, but you could stuff a grenade down the barrel of the tank. Why not? Entirely feasible.

[Dunenewt]

You'd just run them over.  The Merkava has been refitted for urban combat, and the cannon could hit them from miles away anyway.

[Mihail]

You'd just run them over.  The Merkava has been refitted for urban combat, and the cannon could hit them from miles away anyway.

All 1000 of them, eh? ::) And what happens when the treads get blown off or ar mangled beyond repair? Run 'em over, eh?  ::) Face it, this is not a realistic situation. If 1000 men, let us say 300 of them armed with RPGs, and the rest have hand grenades or charges and such are put up against one lone tank, the men would win. Ask anyone experienced in combat, I think they would tell you the same thing.

[exatreide]

Israel will stand against it's enemies has it has always stood against its enemies. Regardless of the Arab world has, Israel will always be one step ahead, because they have to be.

Israel left Gaza trying for peace.

Israel left southern Lebbenon trying for peace

Israel left the west bank trying for peace.

What does Palestine do? Elect Hammas into goverment. A known terrorist organization.

What does Hezbola do? take a israel soldier and rain rockets down on Israel civilans.

to try any form of apeasement with groups that sucide bomb schools and hospitals is to hand over Checoslavakia to Adolf Hitler. These people do not want peace, these people want the destruction of the state of Israel and the death of the Jewish people.

As Israel will not stand for this, it will defend itself as it always has. And will continue to do so untill either Fundamentalists lay down their arms or untill the enemies of Israel lay in their own blood.

The choice is up to them, not Israel.

Human wave tactics? Yea those were popular in the first world war, notice that they didn't work thanks to a little invention called the machine gun. What good did it give the Iranians against the Iraqi's? 500 screaming men armed with Qourans are really no match for the a mlitary trained to fight against modern opponents.

RPGS? The Israeli military is armed with Abrams tanks, and they are rumored to have devices that can destroy incoming RPGS (seen it on cnn..RPG was coming towards abrams tank and just pff disapeared).

You ever "popped" the hatch to a buttoned up tank? You cant just pull a lever and drop a gernade in, those things are pretty heavily armored.

If Syria, Jordan, and Egypt want to stop anymore bloodshed. They need to educate their populace against fundamentalism and rid this idea that "the holocaust was simply jewish propoganda to take our land."

Besides, if the fundamentalists did destroy israel, they wouldn't stop their. Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad/Al Qauda/Muslim Brotherhood would just start hitting Turkey/Greece/Romania/Denmark/UK/Japan

[Purge]

Apprently these groups' main goal being to destroy all Jews isn't a good enough reason for Israel to defend itself after being attacked between their borders by said people.

You can't rationalize with the irrational.