Thoughtcriminals convicted

[Edric O]

As of this Monday, six people have been sent to jail by an American court purely for voicing their opinion that animal cruelty is bad. Specifically, they set up a website pointing out the animal rights abuses carried out by several companies. The court found them guilty of harming business...

Read the full story here.

And, you know, this calls for a quote:

"As long as I am mayor of this city the great industries are secure. We hear about constitutional rights, free speech and the free press. Every time I hear these words I say to myself, 'That man is a Red, that man is a Communist.' You never hear a real American talk like that."

- Frank Hague, mayor of Jersey City, NJ from 1917-1947

[Acriku]

Well, you remove some rights we have (ahem patriot act!), what's another couple rights that we lose?

I seriously think that if the government could tuck the constitution under the rug they would.

[gunner154]

Sadness. So are we still going to be pro-business?

[Megashrap]

Well, you remove some rights we have (ahem patriot act!), what's another couple rights that we lose?

I seriously think that if the government could tuck the constitution under the rug they would.

Speaking of the Patriot Act, the other day I was doing some browsing mainly for a few real pictures of different types of laser guided missiles,bombs entirely harmless and for the sole purpose of a damn game. Now after searching, looking etc. afterwards I really couldn't help but think to myself, hmm, did I just send up some sorta red flag from Homeland Security? I mean in the search engines I used, I did use words like bombs,lasers guided missles, other countries weaponry etc. Not being paranoid or anything, but it really did kinda make me wonder a bit afterwards.

Sorry Edric O if I strayed too far off course there.

[gunner154]

It was nice knowing you, scar5150. Bye bye. :'(

[Dude_Doc]

But, hey, I guess as long 2 + 2 = 4 the rest will follow. It's sad seeing something like this. Hell I wanted to live and work in the US, but after reading article after article after article, I really doubt my decission to move there. It seems I could just as well move to China or Myanmar, at least I'm allowed to create movies there so long I don't critizice their governments  :( ...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Hold on... Hold on... before you guys start spouting all this bullshit.... how about read what the hell these idiots have done.....

In 2004, a senior FBI official told a congressional subcommittee that animal rights and environmental militants had become "the most active criminal extremist elements in the United States."

Not all of the militants' tactics were peaceful. In one celebrated instance, two men beat Huntingdon's managing director with baseball bats.

this beating

[nemafakei]

See, the thing that frustrates me is this: "the six were convicted of running an Internet site that allowed others access to information that could be used in crimes."

Why not just convict them for 'beating Huntingdon's managing director with baseball bats'. Why not just convict them to conspiracy to assault/affray/criminal damage? Incitement to violence should indeed be illegal and strictly punished as such.

*Anything* can be "allowing others access to information that could be used in crimes": are we prosecuting train services for publishing timetables which terrorists can use? No, because that would be ridiculous.

[Anathema]

What Nema says.

However the title of this thread is ridiculously exaggerating. Like the article mentioned eco extremists are a growing (albeit still small) problem. They're obviously a minority even among PETA members but they can be very dangerous. Pim Fortuyn was murdered by such a person.

[Edric O]

The point is that the convicted people are not ecoterrorists. They did not harm anyone, they did not cause any property damage, and they did not even incite others to do any of those things. All they did was "provide information that could be used in crimes". Well, ANY information could be used in crimes.

And also...

No industry deserves to be terrorized like this....

I vehemently disagree. Some industries deserve to be outright destroyed (I nominate the tobacco industry, for one). Some CEO's are responsible for disgustingly unethical practices (e.g. sweatshops) and ruining millions of lives. Frankly, some of them deserve to be beaten with baseball bats or receive death threats targeted at their children.

Now, I am not saying that is the case here. I don't know enough about Huntingdon to pass judgement. I am only warning you that you are not looking at all sides of the picture either, Guns.

And, in any case, all of that is irrelevant. The convicted people did not do it, and they did not even incite it. The court itself admitted these things. They are innocent.

[Khan]

Huh weird walking through one of the server rooms at work (work for a hosting company) walked past a couple of servers labelled Huntingdon. Now where did I put my coffee....

[VigilVirus]

Authors of written literature should not be prosecuted, no matter how radical or prejudist it is. Individuals aren't responsible for the effect their works may have on others. In the past, there have been occasions when these civil rights were curbed by things like the Sedition Act etc, which ultimately were repealed. In this case, however, individuals are convicted for conspiring against a business? What kind of bullshit judge/jury let that case slip by anyway?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Authors of written literature should not be prosecuted, no matter how radical or prejudist it is. Individuals aren't responsible for the effect their works may have on others. In the past, there have been occasions when these civil rights were curbed by things like the Sedition Act etc, which ultimately were repealed. In this case, however, individuals are convicted for conspiring against a business? What kind of bullshit judge/jury let that case slip by anyway?

Osama never flew a plane into a buildings... Osama never drove a car bomb into a building... Osama has never physically partaken in any of the terrorist attacks.. yet we hunt him down and hold him responsible.  I am sorry... but Ringleaders SHOULD take some blame.

[Acriku]

There's a large difference between Osama actively conspiring to terrorize a country and a member of an animal rights activism providing information. And you know that. If we blame this guy for this, then what's to stop any industry leader from actively pursuing any contributor of information said to hurt the industry? It's rediculous. Hey, let's all throw members of Truth in jail because they released information that cigarettes kill!

[GUNWOUNDS]

There's a large difference between Osama actively conspiring to terrorize a country and a member of an animal rights activism providing information. And you know that. If we blame this guy for this, then what's to stop any industry leader from actively pursuing any contributor of information said to hurt the industry? It's rediculous. Hey, let's all throw members of Truth in jail because they released information that cigarettes kill!

If members of truth giave information on how to commit crimes and terrorize people then they too would also be subject to imprisonment.  And you know that.  These animal rights activists are guilty of more than just "providing information about a company" ... they are inciting violence.

[gunner154]

I think it all boils down to this: Is inciting violence always bad? If so, why? If not, when?

[Egeides]

A pertinent precedent here would be this radio host who was the first taken as a case of La Hague tribunal (if I remember well), on charges of having incited a genocide and of having been a key asset in pushing this further. Anyone against his trial here?

And besides, I disagree that giving someone train time-tables is just as going and giving formulas for whattever. There is a difference between information when it is put on different place of the spectrum. It gets quite obvious with extremes with time tables vs bombs, or even time tables vs atomic plans. Isn't there a limit between such extremes, rather than just "no, no, no"?

[Edric O]

Osama never flew a plane into a buildings... Osama never drove a car bomb into a building... Osama has never physically partaken in any of the terrorist attacks.. yet we hunt him down and hold him responsible.  I am sorry... but Ringleaders SHOULD take some blame.

Osama planned and ordered the attacks. That makes him entirely responsible for them. But consider the differences between the following things:

1. Planning and ordering attacks on the Twin Towers.

2. Ordering attacks, but not participating in the planning.

3. Going on TV or the internet and saying that the towers should be destroyed, without actually being involved with any organization that wants to destroy them.

4. Merely saying that the towers are bad.

5. Just giving people maps of the towers.

You should be prosecuted for 1 and 2. No. 3 is a borderline case (incitement to violence) and may or may not be prosecuted, depending on factors like whether someone carried out attacks based on your incitement. 4 and 5 clearly fall within the realm of freedom of speech and no sane government would prosecute them.

The problem is that the US government has convicted people for doing the equivalent of 4 and 5.

If members of truth giave information on how to commit crimes and terrorize people then they too would also be subject to imprisonment.

Most mystery novels include information on how to commit crimes. Many action movies include information on how to commit terrorist acts. Should we prosecute their authors too?

[Anathema]

#5 should be prosecuted if you knew that the information would be used, or very probably would be used to carry out attacks, for example if you post it in a forum thread named "post industrial targets here". Cases will just about never be that cut and clear though.

That said, it does seem to me that the persons mentioned on top of this thread were wrongly convicted.

[Edric O]

#5 should be prosecuted if you knew that the information would be used, or very probably would be used to carry out attacks, for example if you post it in a forum thread named "post industrial targets here". Cases will just about never be that cut and clear though.

I disagree. If the information is public, there are hundreds of ways that would-be attackers could get hold of it. If you didn't post it, they could just get it from someone else (e.g. you shouldn't be prosecuted for handing out train timetables when the terrorists could have gotten those same timetables from many other places).

You should only be prosecuted if you distribute confidential or private information that the terrorists needed to know in order to carry out the attacks.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I disagree. If the information is public, there are hundreds of ways that would-be attackers could get hold of it. If you didn't post it, they could just get it from someone else (e.g. you shouldn't be prosecuted for handing out train timetables when the terrorists could have gotten those same timetables from many other places).

You should only be prosecuted if you distribute confidential or private information that the terrorists needed to know in order to carry out the attacks.

What if you were the only way for the terrorists to get the info in a timely fashion in order to perform the attack by a certain date?  Perhaps getting timetables or info from you would be the only way they could schedule the attack on New year's Day in Madison Square Garden, etc, etc.  Perhaps their attack would be delayed if you hadnt offered up the info on a silver platter.  Sure maybe they could do it without you... but if you compiled, organized, and simplified the material which led to the attack occuring right on schedule, then there is is culpability.  This is America... if you can sue McDonalds for giving you hot coffe that you spill on yourself... you sure as heck can jail someone for giving out info to be used for illegal purposes.

What if i gave a  hitman the address of his mark?  Surely the hitman could look the guy up in the phonebook or what not... but what if the mark was scheduled to leave the city on a flight in 4 hours and what if the hitman needed the address from me immediately in order to complete his hit.  Sure i am giving him public info that could be gotten from a phone book but it may take the hitman much time if the mark has a common name. And he could fail his mission, but thanks to me giving him public info that he needed he could complete his mission on schedule.

You can find culpability in just about any scenario.

Guns

[nemafakei]

In which case, just charge them with aiding and abetting.

[Edric O]

A lot also depends on whether you gave information to a person you knew to be a hitman/terrorist or whether you were just being helpful to a complete stranger.

Suppose you're in a train station and a hurried man walks up to you and asks for directions to find a train that leaves in a couple of minutes. You tell him where to go, thus helping him catch the train. Unknown to you, that man is a terrorist who blows up the train one hour later. Are you responsible for the deaths of the people on the train?

I think not.

[Anathema]

Hence, me saying this.

#5 should be prosecuted if you knew that the information would be used, or very probably would be used to carry out attacks, for example if you post it in a forum thread named "post industrial targets here". Cases will just about never be that cut and clear though.