Water

[stefanhendriks]

Ok, what if windtraps would collect water? How would you like to see it spend in the game?

- limit your troop amount by water amount? (ie, windtraps = farms as in warcraft)

- use as extra for buying stuff? (not only spice, but also water required to build specific units?)

- any other idea?

since the engine is nearing 'completion' i want to take the path of cool ideas but keep it tight on the 'dune 2 universe'.

[Swordmaster_Duncan]

I like the listed ideas. Though would water be a one-off payment for units, or would you need to constantly provide water for them?

Could you buy water though the starport, or loacal water traders?

[The_Beast]

this is a good idea, but one thing important is NEVER, NEVER add a unit limit like in starcraft/warcraft cause this ruins a good rts, all the westwood rts (c&C,Red-Alert) were the only to let you build massive army. I think is much more fun to be able have the amount of unit we want.

[The_Beast]

When do you intend to create your team of programers/artist/game designer/etc for you the second part or your dune 2 project.

I would really like to participate into the second part of the project. I think I could be one of the game designer ( I like a lot the ideas that were allready brought in forums. Also I got a tons of cool ideas. Some stuff in other rts games would be crazy to see in the same game ) with my experience in gaming ( My first pc was a commodre 64, i'm playing a lot of genre of game so i've seen a lot of stuff, that we could mix/implement into a rts game). I also have skills in c++ programming so i can help with coding.

I got an formation in computer technology so i can help in many ways.

The progress of dune 2 the maker is getting near completion so fast, immagine the possibilies with a team.

Let me know what you think about that.

ps. (I'm also interested to be a tester like you mentionned in an other post and i can't help you dealing with the forum to update stuff like to do list, change list, anoncement of comming stuff and the ideas you want to implant stuff like that)

[nemafakei]

Water, if used, would need major programming edits, but it would be worth it.

First, we'd abolish the idea of 'power' - let's assume technology is such that any building can power itself.

My approach would be to have windtraps store and generate water regularly. Water would be consumed to a varying degree by building staff (particularly when facilities are active or reapairing), and all units, over time. When you're low on water, infantry move more slowly, construction takes longer, and the health of your units suffers slightly - e.g. every half-second a random unit loses a few hit points.

When you run out of water (which should almost never happen in a game), all construction except the building of windtraps ceases, outlying units stop consuming water - but start losing health (as many as necessary until consumption is less than production), and defection becomes a possibility for units that see a well stocked enemy base.

Ideally, you should also be able to maually deprive some units of water in order to ration it or to preserve critical units.

[stefanhendriks]

Why would 'power' be removed for this?

I also thought off adding the palace at start to be buildable for little, but with a lot of extra's you can access through it (via the icon list).

[nemafakei]

Partly to remove complications, partly because it would otherswise be too near a duplicate of water, and partly to make it more realistic: windtraps do not actually provide power.

[heavy trooper]

make it more realistic: windtraps do not actually provide power.

That's right! In original Dune-Novels, Windtraps are only used to collect water. There is no such thing as a generator or something linke that.

I guess you wouldn't want to add powerplants to the game. as this would not be true to the original Dune II.

But i love the idea of adding water as a crucial element in the Maker-Game!

This is really a great idea. But I also assume that it will take a lot if work to be implemented.

Best idea would be to use water for extra "special features" to avoid gettin 1000s of windtraps when having a large army. ;D

Perhaps one could hire fremen troops as water is very valuable to the fremen people.

[nemafakei]

Yes, essentially, you'd be dealing in two commodities: water and spice. Fremen would join you for water (one off payments and no need to pay upkeep, since they can preserve it with effectively 100% efficiency) and no spice (they have lots of it and little use for it). Starports might permit the purchase of water for spice (a trade that should be inefficient), and capturing windtraps would place their water in your hands.

[Sfon]

And what would be the benefit of buying fremen with water, exactly? This would basically break the Atreides palace ability, and add what? Just another type of trooper?

The ideas I've seen so far in this thread just sound like they would complicate things and bring D2TM further away from the original for no good reason. If gameplay is to be changed around, it should be for something that has a real benefit, and not someting that just looks cool in a list of game features.

This is especially true for replacing power with water, which will need time to implement and change the gameplay from something that works to something that just sounds cool in a feature list.

As for windtraps not providing power: they DO provide power in Dune 2. Dune 2 is to my knowledge only roughly based on the novels, something that I think was a great idea because it allowed the freedom to make a great game with minimal creative restrictions.

[Andrew]

Wouldn't there be a version where it is as close to Dune 2 as possibly (but with the enhancements such as selelcting multiple units etc), and then another version where all these ideas would be implemented?

So when the game starts up you would choose Dune2 version or Dune2 the maker ?

[nemafakei]

Sfon, these are ideas for extensions to be implemented only after we have a fully working DII clone.

[stefanhendriks]

Yes, that is right.

Eventually the menu flow should be:

PLAY

- choose play mode:

  - skirmish

  - campaign

  - multiplayer

    -> game mode (Dune 2 / D2TM)

it would require some effort to change things around, but THAT much i think.

Do remember this is about brainstorming about a new feature for D2TM only, so do not be afraid of the game in its current state.

[gunner154]

Water should be used to limit your army size. However, not in the way Blizzard games have it implemented. You can continue building and training as much as you want, but if you exceed the limit, your troops would start losing health and eventually die (and the rate of water loss is greater if they are on open sand). However, a stillsuit upgrade could perhaps be made available and upgradable to several levels to help you bypass this obstacle. However, you could make it very pricey, or implement it together with higher infantry cost. Stillsuits reduce the rate of water loss (and effectively health loss) and thus reducing the need for getting more windtraps. An alternative would be to simply have troops recycle their water with stillsuits at 100% efficiency, but doing it either at a one-off upgrade cost, or to increase the price of all infantry and units. The main difference is whether stillsuits reduce rate of water loss, or prevent it.

For D2TM style, this upgrade/increase in cost would have to be done for each territory (just as how you need to upgrade the barracks for a territory in order to get platoons, rather than having it work for all of your territories).

But I would recommend inefficient water recycling, ensuring that windtraps remain in use, there is a point in expansion, and fremen (with their 100% efficiency in water recycling) are special. That way, Atreides still get to keep their special infantry.

[MrFlibble]

I think that removing power requirements isn't a good idea anyway. As with water, maybe have windtraps replenish the water suuply, and spend it on units at a regular basis. This shouldn't be strict. You may have any number of troops and any amount of water, but if you have less water, you'll have to provide your troops more frequently with it as portions will be smaller (we'll distribute water in equal amounts to all of the units, right?). Roughly speaking, the amount of water (counted in abstract units) is divided by the umber of units, and then each unit's water demand is calculated to know when they'll need another water supply.

[stefanhendriks]

well, for water i can imagine:

PER TIME UNIT:

- variable of water usage per unit (ie, a devastator has more 'men' to control it, thus needing more water)

- variable of water supplied by windtraps

where eventually:

result = total amount water supplied / (all units * their water usage);

when result < 1.0, meaning more demand then deliver... the units will damage, decay, or become 'houseless' (crew dies). >= 1.0 means enough water and nothing happens.

This would be then like Total Anihilation style; where every second windtraps deliver water units (depending on their health ofcourse) and where units ask for water. So a constant 'flow' of water is in the game. WHen a windtrap gets destroyed, the water supply is disrupted and could severely cause damage to your troops.

I can imagine: repairing structures = cost extra water.

I can also imagine for special weapons: "Muad'dib summon rain" or something like that ;) So your destination given area gets plentiful water and regenerates units/structures in the area?

[gunner154]

PER TIME UNIT:

- variable of water usage per unit (ie, a devastator has more 'men' to control it, thus needing more water)

- variable of water supplied by windtraps

where eventually:

result = total amount water supplied / (all units * their water usage);

when result < 1.0, meaning more demand then deliver... the units will damage, decay, or become 'houseless' (crew dies). >= 1.0 means enough water and nothing happens.

Yes. That sounds good to me. But it would be a little burdensome at times. As for my idea (yeah, I know, vested interests :)), will Atreides, Harkonnen and Ordos troops all be using stillsuits? Are they supposed to possess stillsuits, or are they unique to the Fremen? Perhaps they could differ in quality...

[Swordmaster_Duncan]

My copy of Dune II doesn't have a manual (I bought it second hand, it is legit - and I'm proud of it :P), but didn't the original Dune II manual have a crew list for vehicles?

Also, with referance to stillsuits, I think that Atreides should get a bonus to them for their diplomatic efforts with the fremen - theirs being the best and all. As in Atreides/Fremen stilsuits recycle more water than others.

Come to think of it, I can't explicity remember House Harkonnen troops wearing stillsuits at all (No mention in Appendix 1, and the the general reluctance of moisture preservation by both the Atreides and Harkonnen when ruling Arrakis - I'd assume by the Harkonnen more as they were wealthier than the Atreides, that being a show of wealth). I do assume that it would be utter stupidity if they didn't though...

EDIT: partially beaten :P

[MrFlibble]

I can imagine: repairing structures = cost extra water.

I don't actually see the logic of this ???

About stillsuits: won't making the environment so harsh that units suffer from just being around or walking in the sand overcomplicate the game?

[stefanhendriks]

Well, that would make it even more interesting for the houses wouldnt it?

Harkonnen = no stillsuits, meaning more water expensive (twice as much consuming?)

Ordos = Partially gained? Still more water expensive but not more then 1.5?

Atreides = Least expensive, 1.25 at max

Fremen = Equal usage, so they do not cost water.

For these values:

Atreides -> Fremen relationship can reduce water usage, therefor ability to have more troops while keeping the samea mount of windtraps

I don't know yet how to give harkonnen and ordos a real function or other 'advantage'...

[stefanhendriks]

I don't actually see the logic of this ???

About stillsuits: won't making the environment so harsh that units suffer from just being around or walking in the sand overcomplicate the game?

For normal operation, structures cost an x amount of water. (ie, the crew costs that. For repairs, you can either:

- think the same crew applies the repairs, therefor the structure itself is not functional

- extra crew is applied to apply repairs to keep structure functional.

for 1. cost of water remains the same

for 2. cost of water raises temporarily.

[Swordmaster_Duncan]

Water, if used, would need major programming edits, but it would be worth it.

First, we'd abolish the idea of 'power' - let's assume technology is such that any building can power itself.

My approach would be to have windtraps store and generate water regularly. Water would be consumed to a varying degree by building staff (particularly when facilities are active or reapairing), and all units, over time. When you're low on water, infantry move more slowly, construction takes longer, and the health of your units suffers slightly - e.g. every half-second a random unit loses a few hit points.

When you run out of water (which should almost never happen in a game), all construction except the building of windtraps ceases, outlying units stop consuming water - but start losing health (as many as necessary until consumption is less than production), and defection becomes a possibility for units that see a well stocked enemy base.

Ideally, you should also be able to maually deprive some units of water in order to ration it or to preserve critical units.

I think you should still need power, but not in the traditional sence of RTS.

- Power plants provide a huge amount of power - enough to power a whole base easily (by fusion power, solar, geothermal, wind, etc), so you would only 'need' one, but you can build more as backups so your not left in the dark (no pun intended) if one is destroyed.

Also on water storage, I don't think you would lose water (as it's more preicious than power, you have to collect it, rather than it being a binary choice), so would you consider having water catchments under your base , so it'd still be limited by rock, but cannot be destroyed. You could expand your water holding capacity by expanding your catchment under your base (click and drag area to excavate and prepare for water storage).

Do you intend to have 'water seals' for upgrades on buildings and vehicles?

Again, just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it :P.

[stefanhendriks]

hehe ;)

FOr most games, there are a million ideas and only 1 makes it ;) :D

for water storage, there could be something like a silo (graphical wise?) so it can be destroyed? Else it makes no sense to me to add water in the game? We can assume right now in d2tm there is plenty of water ;)

[gunner154]

Neat ideas!

Even if the water storage is underground, it must be accessible somehow. And destroying that access point effectively destroys the storage facility it's linked to (assume each underground storage structure is linked to only one access point represented by some structure, like the silo stefan mentioned). Thus, it makes no sense to have invulnerable water storage systems. Complete deprivation is possible.

Windtraps will come with their own storage, and thus having additional storage structures will not be rational (unless the cost differs greatly, as well as space taken up). These storage structures will be filled when there is a water surplus (small army, many windtraps).

Feasible?

[MrFlibble]

I thought the water is stored in basins beneath the windtraps? I don't think the air on Dune is so abundant with water you'll get drowned if no 'water silos' are built. But adding water will make windtraps more valuable, and will also stimuate the player to build more of them, as each windtrap will only condensate water at a very low rate.