Israel...

[ps501]

While the topic of Israel has been debated before in many contexts, I'm sitting here reading

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iran.israel.reut/index.html

Quote from above:

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews... Although we don't accept this claim"  Ahmadinejad said.

Is this man off his rocker?  (I'll go out on a limb here and say an emphatic YES)

Is the Islamic issue with Israel its physical location? 

[Andrew]

How do you move a country?

It might be possible to move Israelis, but not Israel.

The holocaust happened...

[exatreide]

Those Wacky Iranian's their just angry that Isreal could whipe them off the face of the map.. with out useing nukes.

[leo]

His saying is not new. pity Europe is underestimating Iran.

[Dude_Doc]

pity Europe is underestimating Iran.

Or maybe Europe is trying to avoid conflict?

[leo]

Or maybe Europe is creating one? If I remember correctly Europe tried to "avoid" a conflict during the holocaust as well.

[otheymzefedaykin]

While the topic of Israel has been debated before in many contexts, I'm sitting here reading

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iran.israel.reut/index.html

Quote from above:

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews... Although we don't accept this claim"  Ahmadinejad said.

Is this man off his rocker?  (I'll go out on a limb here and say an emphatic YES)

Is the Islamic issue with Israel its physical location? 

He's not wrong. And he's funny (Israel in Europe...) but he's not wrong on a few points. But he knows that Israel won't be moved, so...  ::)

Of course, if Israel didn't exist, a lot of problems too. But no one know what it could happen in this case.

How do you move a country?

It might be possible to move Israelis, but not Israel.

The holocaust happened...

Israel can be moved like it was created !

Those Wacky Iranian's their just angry that Isreal could whipe them off the face of the map.. with out useing nukes.

without using nukes ? I don't know what you want to say because Israel has nukes !

His saying is not new. pity Europe is underestimating Iran.

Iran was many times our ally (like Irak...), it's not the case now. But I don't see why we have to fight them. And you're right, his saying is not new ! But let USA to send their army to die they are here for it.

Or maybe Europe is trying to avoid conflict?

Why must a conflict be done  ?

Or maybe Europe is creating one? If I remember correctly Europe tried to "avoid" a conflict during the holocaust as well.

Perhaps, but no one knew what nazi did.

[Dude_Doc]

Or maybe Europe is creating one? If I remember correctly Europe tried to "avoid" a conflict during the holocaust as well.

I don't think so. There was no Europe in those days - but there is now. Europe is trying to make a deal with Iran so that they can create energy-plants. What the whole world is fearing is that Iran will create a nuclear weapon. My question is why the world fears one country that could create around 5 nuclear bombs - each of them most likely using old-time spacerockets when (and if) used.

Why in the whole world would Iran attack anybody with such weapons? It would be suicide.

[exatreide]

I ment the IDF could probebly whipe the floor with the Iranian army.

[Dude_Doc]

I ment the IDF could probebly whipe the floor with the Iranian army.

Sure they could. But I'm sceptical they would try to even get close to Iran. Any attack by Israel on Iran is bound to fail. Why? Iranian propaganda reaches, just like any other propaganda, to the whole of it's population. Even if they defeated the Iranian army, they would have to deal with Iranian "civilians", and I believe many of them would be reqruited in one or the other terrorist-organization, or create one themselves. In other words, Israel would get themselves into a similar situation the US is in now in Iraq - only worse (considering the whole Jew-Arab/Israel vs. Middle East thing).

But I don't see why we should worry about such a conflict. It is only the supreme leader, the ayatollah, who can declare war and peace in Iran. It is also strategically inprobably why those countries should/would wage a war, since Iraq lies between them.

[Davidu]

As far as I know Iran it's quite powerfull. It's twice as big as Irak and it is better managed. And as a state it has over 2500 year of uninterupted history. Iran is Persia and it never ceased to exist. Irak on the other hand was created as a state in the '20s. There might be a difference. The iranians are proud of who they are and would put a fight. Irak was weakened by the sanctions and by Saddam's madness. Iran is more stable then that.

[ps501]

His saying is not new. pity Europe is underestimating Iran.

While, personally I'm not a fan of war, It does change the status quo quite significantly.  I think in a few years when Iran has nukes (and I seriously doubt those will be made from tin cans from the 20's) Iran has relatively new technology, is purchasing weapons, and the Russians (as well as others) are helping.  Sadly I almost believe this wackjob; that if he had the ability to wipe Israel off the map I think he'd do it - and I also think its only a matter of time before he actually tries.

I believe that the only reason he won't drop nukes is the fact that Muslims have comperable claims to parts of the land as the Christians and Jews have. 

Even though the contries are separated by Iraq, you have to admit, if Iraq completely destabilizes, and adopts an Islamic state similar to Iran, (assuming the US is gone from Iraq) nothing would stop Iran from driving right over.  A few nukes, plus a decent sized army, in a cash rich state, that is also an intolerant nation with an extremist intolerant religion, that has a wackjob leader = not good.

Wasn't one of the lessons we (Should) have learned in Kindergarden... Can't we all just get along?

[Mihail]

Irak on the other hand ... Irak was weakened by the sanctions ...

Iraq. IRAQ, damn you! :D

[Davidu]

Over here at the end of the Earth we spell it Irak.  ;D

[Caid Ivik]

Why not using then some historical name, like Mesopotamia, Eden or Babylon... But isn't this thread about ישראל ? I hope this transcription won't anger anybody  ;D

[Dude_Doc]

Sadly I almost believe this wackjob; that if he had the ability to wipe Israel off the map I think he'd do it - and I also think its only a matter of time before he actually tries.

You have to take in mind that only the ayatollah, or the supreme leader, has that potential. Whatever crazy president Iran may have, they won't launch anything without his command. Will he try it? I doubt it. Firstly, we have Saudi-arabia, an US ally, alongside Pakistan, Jordan, Afghanistan and soon Iraq too - as well as Israel. Any attack on Israel is doomed to fail.

Even though the contries are separated by Iraq, you have to admit, if Iraq completely destabilizes, and adopts an Islamic state similar to Iran, (assuming the US is gone from Iraq) nothing would stop Iran from driving right over.

Of course. But in order for that to happen, the US must leave. Do the authority in Washington want them to leave? No. Iraq is a resourceful and strategically good position for them. They won't leave until they are overrunned - literally. Secondly, in such a case, why would Iraq allow Iran to even stare at them? It would be like Russia using US to invade China or something. What if they get another Saddam? Or what if they become similar to North Korea or Cuba?

A few nukes, plus a decent sized army, in a cash rich state, that is also an intolerant nation with an extremist intolerant religion, that has a wackjob leader = not good.

Hahahhaa... sound just like some countries on "our side".

Why not using then some historical name, like Mesopotamia, Eden or Babylon... But isn't this thread about ישראל ? I hope this transcription won't anger anybody

Like "State of Eden"? :D 

[Davidu]

Yeah Eden...

"Today there have been numerous car-bombing in Eden... We should wish to go to hell if Eden is so f*ked up!"  ;)

[ordos45]

You have to take in mind that only the ayatollah, or the supreme leader, has that potential. Whatever crazy president Iran may have, they won't launch anything without his command. Will he try it? I doubt it. Firstly, we have Saudi-arabia, an US ally, alongside Pakistan, Jordan, Afghanistan and soon Iraq too - as well as Israel. Any attack on Israel is doomed to fail.

Also, if I remember right, US troops stationed in the Negev in Israel.  An attack on them would provoke an unpleasant response from Bush...

[Barbarossa]

Military    Iran  Top of Page

Military branches:

Definition Field Listing

Islamic Republic of Iran Regular Forces (Artesh): Ground Forces, Navy, Air Force (includes Air Defense)

Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Sepah-e Pasdaran-e Enqelab-e Eslami, IRGC): Ground Forces, Navy, Air Force, Qods Force (special operations), and Basij Force (Popular Mobilization Army)

Law Enforcement Forces: (2004)

Military service age and obligation:

Definition Field Listing

18 years of age for compulsory military service; 16 years of age for volunteers; soldiers as young as 9 were recruited extensively during the Iran-Iraq War; conscript service obligation - 18 months (2004)

Manpower available for military service:

Definition Field Listing

males age 18-49: 18,319,545 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:

Definition Field Listing

males age 18-49: 15,665,725 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:

Definition Field Listing

males: 862,056 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:

Definition Field Listing Rank Order

$4.3 billion (2003 est.)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:

Definition Field Listing Rank Order

3.3% (2003 est.)

Military    Israel  Top of Page

Military branches:

Definition Field Listing

Israel Defense Forces (IDF): Ground Corps, Navy, Air and Space Force (includes Air Defense Forces); historically there have been no separate Israeli military services

Military service age and obligation:

Definition Field Listing

17 years of age for compulsory (Jews, Druzes) and voluntary (Christians, Muslims, Circassians) military service; both sexes are eligible for military service; conscript service obligation - 36 months for men, 21 months for women (2004)

Manpower available for military service:

Definition Field Listing

males age 17-49: 1,492,125

females age 17-49: 1,443,916 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:

Definition Field Listing

males age 17-49: 1,255,902

females age 17-49: 1,212,394 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:

Definition Field Listing

males: 53,760

females: 51,293 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:

Definition Field Listing Rank Order

$9.11 billion (FY03)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:

Definition Field Listing Rank Order

8.7% (FY02)

-CIA Factbook.

According to this, there are some rather large differences in manpower. And Iran, being supplied with high-tech weapons from Russia- Such a war could be potentially devestating for both sides.

[Davidu]

Hmm... 15.000.000 vs 3.000.000

What do you think? Now, really what do you think? And they have technology, and the willing to defend themselves.

[Mihail]

Hmm... 15.000.000 vs 3.000.000

What do you think? Now, really what do you think? And they have technology, and the willing to defend themselves.

Pfft, that's nothing. Just remember when Israel was formed. A tiny country of two or three million, all of the Jews herded from the ghettos of Warsaw, the concentration camps of Germany, the battlegrounds of Russia, and the plush life in America, into a tiny piece of desert which they had no chance to settle into before 6(I think: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia) declared war on them and swore to drive the "Zionist pigs into the sea". And what happened? Israel went all pimp and fought them all off and took some more territory. Like I said, mass pimpage. Anyway, now Israel has the U.S. behind it's back and much more advanced technology. Besides, Iran's army is like Russia's now and in 1945: A big disorganised mass, or so I've heard, full of outdated tanks and driven only by the will to (Bender voice) KILL ALL JEWS. :P

[Caid Ivik]

Hm, but Iran haven't tried...yet  ::)  But no jokes, this is a serious thing. Their last president rhetorically resembles more leaders of 1930s, he simply won't be friendly. And in case Turkey will join EU soon, it's on our borders.

[Davidu]

Hmm.... it wasn't the Jews from Warsaw, or the ones in the concentration camps that fought off the arabs. It was the ones that fought under the British flag in WWII. They were used to war. And besides, jews everywhere emigrated to Palestine... and they were supported by USA and UK and some other countries as well... And the arab states were as well, just being formed, and they had no army experience, like the jews did. There are differences.

Back on topic, I don't think Iran's president will be so stupid to try and attack Israel. HOW THE HELL DO YOU ATTACK A COUNTRY YOU HAVEN'T GOT A BORDER WITH? When you're not USA I mean.

[ordos45]

Iran has aircraft, and it also has the Shahab (or is it Sahab) 3 missile which could easily hit Israel. 

[Davidu]

But won't those aircraft have to fly OVER IraQ ( for Caid) or Siria? In Iraq they'll be shot down by USA and I don't know if Siria would let foreign military in their coutry.

About the missles, well, doesen't Israel have missles of their own to retaliate?