possession and exorcism

[GUNWOUNDS]

By studying these books, you can find out whether they are a pile of nonsense. The only thing that would stop you is the fear of rendering yourself vulnerable - a cleverly implied threat.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Personal genie refers to those who hope to summon demons and have them do what they want.

I haven't heard of a situation like the one you described. Even if such a situation existed, it could be that current science could not provide satisfactory answers; it doesn't mean there aren't. Remember that people in the past could not explain a solar eclispe, an earthquake or a volcano eruption; I bet that many attributed those to a god of their imagination, or a spell of some wizard.

Well thats assuming that spirits are incapable of interacting with the material universe.  If demons are capable of poltergeist activity (spirits that can interact with material objects).. then something could happen both naturally and supernaturally and you wouldnt be able to tell the difference.  If a poltergeist could throw a chair across a room... why couldnt it go between the tectonic plates of the earth and cause an earthquake?

[TMA_1]

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

hope that helps a bit gunwounds :)

[Spectral Paladin]

Well thats assuming that spirits are incapable of interacting with the material universe.  If demons are capable of poltergeist activity (spirits that can interact with material objects).. then something could happen both naturally and supernaturally and you wouldnt be able to tell the difference.  If a poltergeist could throw a chair across a room... why couldnt it go between the tectonic plates of the earth and cause an earthquake?

Ok, but surely you don't mean every similar phenomenon in the past was caused by a demon? If not, then it's certain that people indeed attributed natural phenomena to fictitious supernatural forces. This could well be the case with your supposedly possessed mother. She could have superb strength for which there is a logical answer. Just an answer that current science cannot provide.

    Could you elaborate on that?  How would studying these books prove them to be a pile of nonsense?  What?.. you would try to perform an incantation or ritual and if it failed then you would conclude that the book was false?  That wouldnt convince me.  Perhaps the demon or spirit has a choice in the matter as well... rendering your experiment useless.  If demons exist... dont you think they can see what you are doing or hear everything you say...and understand what you are trying to do? 

    If they knew you were trying out the ritual without actually wanting power or to serve evil and only wanted to exposed the ritual as a fraud, of course they wouldnt show up.  Having you disbelieve in the spiritual realm would be a plus for them.  The only people that they would probably manifest themselves for would be people that they know that DO honestly believe in the spiritual realm, and really are looking to serve evil and in which case they could get more evil accomplished by giving a manifestation or having the incantation succeed.  If these things exist they would be rather intelligent (being as old as they are).  I'm just saying you need to think outside the box with this stuff.  Read the Screw Tape Letters by C.S. Lewis you'll see what i mean.

I think it's a matter of probability. By studying those books, the rituals they contain, the time and the place they were written, the people they are written by, the reasons why they wrote them, and all other conditions under which they were written, I can reach a point where I can say "I 'm almost certain this is crap" or "I believe these things exist".

We can never be sure about anything till we have all the answers.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok, but surely you don't mean every similar phenomenon in the past was caused by a demon? If not, then it's certain that people indeed attributed natural phenomena to fictitious supernatural forces. This could well be the case with your supposedly possessed mother. She could have superb strength for which there is a logical answer. Just an answer that current science cannot provide.

I think it's a matter of probability. By studying those books, the rituals they contain, the time and the place they were written, the people they are written by, the reasons why they wrote them, and all other conditions under which they were written, I can reach a point where I can say "I 'm almost certain this is crap" or "I believe these things exist".

We can never be sure about anything till we have all the answers.

Agreed.

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

hope that helps a bit gunwounds :)

Good info... thanks.

[Acriku]

    Hmm well the bible talks about Jesus casting out demons of several people ...such as "legion" ... and others....so ask your "christian friends" about that and let me know their response... i would like to know their opinion........ from what i just said i am assuming its not just a "catholic thing" ... however the thing that does seperate catholics from many other denominations is that catholics believe that if someone IS demon possessed that they can perform an exorcism.... i am not sure if any other denominations attempt exorcisms.  One might conclude that the non-catholic denominations dont perform exorcisms because they dont believe in demon possession.... however its more likely that they believe its impossible to become demon possessed anymore due to god's grace.  I am not a theologian so i cannot say for certain.

Well these guys are also the Christians who don't believe in Noah's Flood (a story to them, in other words). So, this is probably just another metaphor to them. I'll ask one of them next time he's over. TMA had said, 'real' possessions are rare - why is that do you think? If a demon can possess someone, why can't it be done more often? If they are real, where is God protecting us? I would agree with the grace of God protecting us part, because that makes sense. But then again, that means those 'real' possessions are fake, the Catholic church is full of it, and there are a lot of suckers in the world.

If God is so adament about us having free will, demonic possessions would be inexistant - God wouldn't allow our free will to be strayed by Satan's demons. If you guys are going to say that God favors free will, be consistent with it and denounce the existence of demonic possessions. If we have to go through evil and suffering just because God wants us to have free will, then by golly we should be immune to demonic possessions.

As for spirits not having to hide anymore because it's Apocalypse time, yeah... I expect Santa Claus to come out of hiding, too, because it's Christmas time. Let's see which happens first. But hey, that's your belief and everyone is entitled to their own belief, no matter how silly.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i answered your questions in the posts above acriku.

[Acriku]

I apologize for not getting that out of your previous post. You pretty much answered my questions, except for the part about God letting us get possessed. Doesn't he want us to have free will? Even if we "want" to get possessed, I don't think God would let us give up our free will. Do you?

[Caid Ivik]

I'm glad we are finally turning to definitions of terms, what should be done in the beginning ;)

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

To speak for mother Church, exorcism isn't based on any dogma. It's a normal ritual made ie during bapticism as "cleansing of soul". As catechism says, for any other form the situation needs to be analysed if it isn't just a psychic disease (1637). Also word "demon" is unknown to Catholic Church (as it means in fact any spiritual being), there is used only term "devil" (diabolos - One throwing cross, 2851), which does not have to be defined as a "separate power" from the possessed soul. English has a good term "vice", which may be perfectly descriptive. We can't think of it as some kind of material parasite, which could be removed; exorcism is a reshaping of soul itself.

[Digital Guerrilla]

people here seem to think of demons as beasts or something with predictable behavior... it is more likely that they are unpredictable due to being quite clever since they are obviously extremely old and experienced. The Screw Tape Letters really puts it into perspective.

It can be said that "demons" are Angelic beings that have fallen from the grace of God (for those who believe in faith). These spiritual forces are eons old in this universe and know more about man than humans know about themselves. It is hard for this generation of man to believe in something (besides what we see with our eyes) because we are being taught that there is nothing to gain from these beliefs because they come without "material value".

(@Gunz & TMA-1)

As for the actual demon possession physical possession is not possible but there is spiritual possession and if I am correct TMA-1 hinted as such in a previous post.

[Dude_Doc]

Demon's tactics most likely change with the changing times and its probably best for them to keep quiet and in the shadows and make people think that spirits dont exist at all, rather than possess people and cause a huge scene that might actually reinforce others's faith.

Then I guess the demons have made a great job. Why? Because modern medicine, as one example, has provided cures for many diseaces and ills - something the "Heavens" have not given us since the days of Jesus. But the medicine and cures have actually helped people, made them happy. Of course people question God and their own faith, when we humans help each other, when we do everything ourselves without any kind of help from the heavens.

I mean, this is how humans work. If the demons somehow changed form and started "possessing" people in order to invent a cure for cancer and AIDs, prociding answers for the great questions about the universe, maybe even making a "scope" pointing at the right direction in the sky, so that we make contact with another alien race - then practically, the have won, is this not true?

And what about the internet? Free porn, free "un-Christian" discussions, satanistical message boards, pedophiles, necrophiles, and everything else of that kind of unspeakable garbage that the internet consists of up to 90%.

But this is progress. While people are cured, they loose their faith in the supernatural, but they are cured - they become happy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Then I guess the demons have made a great job. Why? Because modern medicine, as one example, has provided cures for many diseaces and ills - something the "Heavens" have not given us since the days of Jesus. But the medicine and cures have actually helped people, made them happy. Of course people question God and their own faith, when we humans help each other, when we do everything ourselves without any kind of help from the heavens.

I mean, this is how humans work. If the demons somehow changed form and started "possessing" people in order to invent a cure for cancer and AIDs, prociding answers for the great questions about the universe, maybe even making a "scope" pointing at the right direction in the sky, so that we make contact with another alien race - then practically, the have won, is this not true?

And what about the internet? Free porn, free "un-Christian" discussions, satanistical message boards, pedophiles, necrophiles, and everything else of that kind of unspeakable garbage that the internet consists of up to 90%.

But this is progress. While people are cured, they loose their faith in the supernatural, but they are cured - they become happy.

hah.. you actually think that pills and drugs make people happy?

[TMA_1]

Well what many dont realize is that even to some churches, possessions are somewhat of a mystery. In my practice of faith I have studied much by myself and I am trying still to learn some greek and hebrew to study the oldest most exact texts of the word. Anyways one part of my study was demonology and the "occult". It really wasent that important and I probably shouldnt have gotten into it as much as I did because I am not a pastor, and that really is more in the venue of pastoral work. Anyways as I said it is kinda a mystery. Most demonic possession isnt seen, it isnt meant to be seen! Satan is a master of his craft, which is manipulation. Many leaders of governments throughout history were probably possessed, it is even mentioned once in Daniel when Gabriel had to fight off the "prince of persia". This is referring to a "world ruler" demon. These demons are in the higher levels of Satan's forces. They stay in the background and manipulate, even possess individuals in power for the aim of controlling world events for whatever purpose Satan has. Whether it be in the short term, or even in the long term spanning the history of this planet. This kind of possession isnt seen because manipulation requires subtlety. In fact most possessions arent outward or visible.

This is why it is so strange that possessions take place. Why would demons openly show themselves to people? On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power? These questions cannot be answered because it would just be speculation. I have an assumption, but it is just that and I want to keep it that way because I dont want to add to the scriptures, that is a veeeery bad thing to do obviously.

anyways my assumption is that not all demons are really united to Satan. If the followers of Satan are rebels, then who is to say that they would stay united under the power of satan? Splinter groups have always existed in history when talking about revolutions and such. Could it be that these demons have no allegiance? That these are rogue demons trying to escape the chains of darkness? Could it be that these demons are just plain crazy? I have no idea, dont want to make assumptions concrete, but it is definitely a mystery.

[Spectral Paladin]

And Aragorn leaps and slays the foul demons with anduril!!!

It's just my personal opinion but I don't think christianity has anything to do with that stuff. It's like if Tolkien wrote his book 2000 years ago but the good forces were led by God, and the evil forces by Satan and his demons.

[TMA_1]

well I am a huge fan of Tolkien, read most of his books about the history of Arda, and though he does not like Alegory, he does stated that it is a reflection of judeo christian ideas with northern european mythology. So that is probably why you see that.

It isnt anything silly either, the fact that you think it is so silly shows that Satan is a genius at what he does.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well what many dont realize is that even to some churches, possessions are somewhat of a mystery. In my practice of faith I have studied much by myself and I am trying still to learn some greek and hebrew to study the oldest most exact texts of the word. Anyways one part of my study was demonology and the "occult". It really wasent that important and I probably shouldnt have gotten into it as much as I did because I am not a pastor, and that really is more in the venue of pastoral work. Anyways as I said it is kinda a mystery. Most demonic possession isnt seen, it isnt meant to be seen! Satan is a master of his craft, which is manipulation. Many leaders of governments throughout history were probably possessed, it is even mentioned once in Daniel when Gabriel had to fight off the "prince of persia". This is referring to a "world ruler" demon. These demons are in the higher levels of Satan's forces. They stay in the background and manipulate, even possess individuals in power for the aim of controlling world events for whatever purpose Satan has. Whether it be in the short term, or even in the long term spanning the history of this planet. This kind of possession isnt seen because manipulation requires subtlety. In fact most possessions arent outward or visible.

This is why it is so strange that possessions take place. Why would demons openly show themselves to people? On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power? These questions cannot be answered because it would just be speculation. I have an assumption, but it is just that and I want to keep it that way because I dont want to add to the scriptures, that is a veeeery bad thing to do obviously.

anyways my assumption is that not all demons are really united to Satan. If the followers of Satan are rebels, then who is to say that they would stay united under the power of satan? Splinter groups have always existed in history when talking about revolutions and such. Could it be that these demons have no allegiance? That these are rogue demons trying to escape the chains of darkness? Could it be that these demons are just plain crazy? I have no idea, dont want to make assumptions concrete, but it is definitely a mystery.

Wow!... nice thoughts there TMA.  I really dont give you enough credit, cause you sure can think critically. Very nice analysis about the hierarchy, and very cool assumption about the rebel demons, splinter groups, and insane demons....you really opened my eyes and gave me a new way of looking at it..... thanks man. ;)

[Acriku]

This is all what I expected. We don't see demonic possessions because Satan works in evil and subtle ways. He's "behind the scenes." Many leaders must've been possessed, because it mentions an example in the Bible (the same book that proposes the existences of these demons). But nowadays, hardly anybody important is possessed, and why? We don't really know, but we have cool guesses and stories.

You guys aren't being very critical, or have any sense of skepticism that I can see. I mean really. Splinter cells of demons? Rogue demons? Satan's plans for world domination? You are creative, I'll give you that. But let's snap back into reality. This demon thing is going off on a lot of speculation and cool stories. I'd dare take it with a grain of salt.

[Caid Ivik]

Primarily, they aren't serious. There is no such way as a "conflict" between God and devil, no special "work". There is only morale and its following, resp.ignorance. When someone knows morale, knows its meaning, sees no argument against and still disapproves it then ok, call him evil, but why should we say he is an imp. Demon is a word defined by Socrates as conscience, while there is no such word in Bible. Devil, the corruption, selfishness and such sinful states of soul, yes, those are present, simply not everyone is good. But this could never be described by terms of earthly politics, that's bizarre and inaccurate, to euphemize it...

[TMA_1]

There is mention of Satan clearly in Job, when he confronts God in Heaven. Also it mentions the fallen ones who slept with women to taint the line of humanity before the deluge. Angels are mentioned many times and their counterpart is not just assumed.

Well of course it all fits into your opinions Acriku because you dont believe in this stuff. If you ddi believe like many do it would fit in perfectly into your logic, sometimes it is a matter of perception.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Job is a book of many allegories, as you surely know. About nephilim we also can't say they were "former angels", as they are described as material beings and for your faith it has perhaps a same value as age of primogens.

[Dude_Doc]

hah.. you actually think that pills and drugs make people happy?

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces. Recently I saw a small documentary about robotics, and how they literally "fixed" robotic arms for a man without any. I mean the future cures for cancer and AIDs. I mean that these things helps people without one being fithful in any way - thus people loosing their faith in religion just because ever since religion was ever thought about, it has only brought war and massacre.

Then look at science. Have it murdered people? Sure, indirectly it has - but it wasn't for the sake of "the atomic bomb", or for the sake of DNA. Science has provided so much understanding and so much to ease our everyday problems - and what have religion given us? Submission and enslavement - all in the "will of God".

So, what I meant is that people will look at science and say that it has given people much more than religion ever did.

On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power?

I think you must take into consideration that these demons probably has a, what can you call it, a future vision. The smallest actions can have a very great effect on the future. All it took for Hitler to become a dictator was that he failed on one test (which he even tried again of completing) when he was still in art school. This may or may not have to do with possession, but just an example.

[GUNWOUNDS]

This is all what I expected. We don't see demonic possessions because Satan works in evil and subtle ways. He's "behind the scenes." Many leaders must've been possessed, because it mentions an example in the Bible (the same book that proposes the existences of these demons). But nowadays, hardly anybody important is possessed, and why? We don't really know, but we have cool guesses and stories.

You guys aren't being very critical, or have any sense of skepticism that I can see. I mean really. Splinter cells of demons? Rogue demons? Satan's plans for world domination? You are creative, I'll give you that. But let's snap back into reality. This demon thing is going off on a lot of speculation and cool stories. I'd dare take it with a grain of salt.

    Acriku... lets get something straight... i dont have to "not" believe in demons to convince myself that i am "smart".

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces. Recently I saw a small documentary about robotics, and how they literally "fixed" robotic arms for a man without any. I mean the future cures for cancer and AIDs. I mean that these things helps people without one being fithful in any way - thus people loosing their faith in religion just because ever since religion was ever thought about, it has only brought war and massacre.

Then look at science. Have it murdered people? Sure, indirectly it has - but it wasn't for the sake of "the atomic bomb", or for the sake of DNA. Science has provided so much understanding and so much to ease our everyday problems - and what have religion given us? Submission and enslavement - all in the "will of God".

So, what I meant is that people will look at science and say that it has given people much more than religion ever did.

I think you must take into consideration that these demons probably has a, what can you call it, a future vision. The smallest actions can have a very great effect on the future. All it took for Hitler to become a dictator was that he failed on one test (which he even tried again of completing) when he was still in art school. This may or may not have to do with possession, but just an example.

[Dante]

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces.

Diseases. Yes, I know it's a small and unimportant point when compared to the thread as a whole that I really should be replying to, but this has been at the back of my mind for the best part of half an hour, itching. It's 'diseases.'

...There. I feel better.

[Acriku]

I'm all fine with people believing in other gods and stuff. I can discuss against it, but I'm fine with it. It's when people start talking about demon conspiracies and splinter demons, rogue demons, etc, that just really calls for someone to pull the Reality bell. I would act the same if someone started talking about Santa's workings in the North Pole. Rogue elves and splinter elves would be treated the same way. I'm also still just amazed that people I've known to be critical and skeptical in the past believe in this deep of stuff. I thought we as a species grew past the conspiracy of Satan trying to dominate the world and possess people for his evil doings. Tell me, if you believe this is all true, then is the reason people claim every time something bad happens to them (Satan and his demons at work) valid? Could you say they were wrong and still say they exist?