possession and exorcism

[GUNWOUNDS]

Yes it might affect you in a way, possibly negative. But nowhere near making you vulnerable to possessions.

thats your opinion and i respect that.

[Spectral Paladin]

I 'm making that claim on the basis that those aren't real. I like to point out that I 'm not denying it will affect you.

The books are man-made, that's a fact. All I asked you is consider the possibility the content is the product of their imagination, and think about how likely would that be.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i understand that..... however my "eternal spirit" ,if it exists, is far too valuable to play dice with.

[Caid Ivik]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

[Acriku]

Thats not the point spectral...

....to say that books (or any material for that matter) cannot affect you in a negative way is nonsense.... anything you intake into your mind will change you in some way....thats what "exposure" is.  And you keep missing the point... its not the "study" of the material that would hurt you but the "practice" of it.  Reading about genocide wont cause any ill effects but practicing genocide certainly will.  Just as well reading Solomon's Key wont hurt you but trying to actually use the material could open doors that could allow you to become violent, obsessed with demons, blasphemous of the holy spirit, offending God, or ultimately demon possessed. 

You choose to be ignorant of certain books because you may use it? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to refuse to read about it or of it. When religions speak about possessions and demons harming you, their entire credibility is broken down into campfire stories and should be taken as such.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You choose to be ignorant of certain books because you may use it? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to refuse to read about it or of it. When religions speak about possessions and demons harming you, their entire credibility is broken down into campfire stories and should be taken as such.

you keep misquoting me.  i said that the books may have academic value and can be studied.  I never said whether i would study them or not.  I said i would not perform any rituals or incantations or advocate that anyone else do them.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  If you dont believe in demon possessions then good for you ACRIKU....since your an atheist it doesnt really make sense for you to be in this conversation at all since your only contribution is a repetition of "i dont believe it".  Let Caid speak for you as he has been since he is actually conversing without his statements degrading into "boogie man" and "campfire" insults.  Not that i am insulted... just i know you are smarter than that and i hate reading your posts when they degrade into kiddy crap.  I mean we all know you dont believe in it so it gets sorta redundant and tiresome to hear it over and over again.  Either take the base assumption that it does exist and participate in the discussion or just watch from the sidelines.  We all know what your beliefs are.

Anyways i think anyone who is interested in this topic should watch the new movie that came out..."The exorcism of Emily Rose"  Its a movie based on a true story about a girl who died during an exoricsm and the priest is put on trial.... they get a methodist DA to prosecute him and the evidence that is presented on both sides is fascinating.

[GUNWOUNDS]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

yes it is possible ... and i prefer not to.

[GUNWOUNDS]

campfire stories

Imagine me going back in time... and i walk up to Marie Curie and say "Hey dont mess with those rocks.. they have invisible lasers shooting out of them that cause your DNA strands to be mutated and cause your cells to grow independent of your body...."

She would look at me.. having no knowledge of radioactivity or genetics and probably laugh her ass off.

[Egeides]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

Perhaps he could still say that there are risks for the "pureness" of our soul's state (good/evil). In any case what you attach to it as its mode, its state, is not eternal. We live particular states from one second to another.

[Acriku]

you keep misquoting me.  i said that the books may have academic value and can be studied.  I never said whether i would study them or not.  I said i would not perform any rituals or incantations or advocate that anyone else do them.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  If you dont believe in demon possessions then good for you ACRIKU....since your an atheist it doesnt really make sense for you to be in this conversation at all since your only contribution is a repetition of "i dont believe it".  Let Caid speak for you as he has been since he is actually conversing without his statements degrading into "boogie man" and "campfire" insults.  Not that i am insulted... just i know you are smarter than that and i hate reading your posts when they degrade into kiddy crap.  I mean we all know you dont believe in it so it gets sorta redundant and tiresome to hear it over and over again.  Either take the base assumption that it does exist and participate in the discussion or just watch from the sidelines.  We all know what your beliefs are.

Anyways i think anyone who is interested in this topic should watch the new movie that came out..."The exorcism of Emily Rose"  Its a movie based on a true story about a girl who died during an exoricsm and the priest is put on trial.... they get a methodist DA to prosecute him and the evidence that is presented on both sides is fascinating.

Tell me, how many sects of Christianity believe in demonic possession and that books about demons and the dark stuff are real (this is a real question, not a point I'm trying to make) How many people who claim to be Christians believe in that (this is a point, not a question)? From what I've experienced with the people that I had encountered, not many do. A lot of people brush it off as "some weird Catholic hocuspocus" (quoted from another person that I asked about last night). A Christian told me that. So, it's not that I'm atheist that I'm posting like this. It's because I'm a rational person just like all the others who do believe in Jesus Christ but still do not believe in demonic possession. And sorry for misquoting you, but I could have swore you and TMA were in agreement that even reading the books was harmful. Or maybe it was just TMA... Anyway, academic study is a good thing, I agree. Practicing such, well that's up for debate on how bad it might be.

Imagine me going back in time... and i walk up to Marie Curie and say "Hey dont mess with those rocks.. they have invisible lasers shooting out of them that cause your DNA strands to be mutated and cause your cells to grow independent of your body...."

She would look at me.. having no knowledge of radioactivity or genetics and probably laugh her ass off.  She wouldnt believe me.  She wouldnt believe what i said exists. How could a rock possibly emit an invisible laser that would cause her body to kill itself?  HAH!  To her she was just looking at some rocks and what i was saying was mere "campfire stories".  Its just harmless rocks.

So you expect our knowledge of the scientific world to involve demons and demonic possessions in the near future? Otherwise your post was made in jest.

[TMA_1]

hmm I am not speaking for everyone obviously, but I think you guys kind of miss the point on why certain people just wont get into this stuff. Many follow the scriptures of the bible literally, this already should show you empirical thinkers something. not all of us believe that knowledge in itself is the most important thing to gain in life, worldly knowledge that is. We all want knowledge, dont think I dontwant to explore every good and evil path at times, but it just isnt healthy for some christians. On top of that if you follow the bible literally, there are some things that God just outright forbids. The reason why is that these kinds of things directly put you in contact with evil forces. Unlike most forms of evil which have a more or less indirect route to the fall, these kinds of texts offer you a direct access to powers that shouldnt be tampered with if you believe in christ. Many people who practice this stuff after awhile will believe in higher powers, that is the creepiest thing about it. They will see it all from an opposite paradigm, and that is aboutt he worst position you can be in as a christian.lol

[Egeides]

On a similar note, the Bible prohibits to try to foresee the future by astrology or whattever.

I guess I could see the point behind, in which sense it could be incoherent with the Bible. It's an area which seems land mined, with so much blehbleh that one can put 90% of a life's energy into it and hardly advance. Or even be stuck in some swamp of formulaic obscurantist determinism.

Stop running after free lunch of luck jackpot, and get yourself somewhere by good (well-oriented) will. Two opposites: hacking your way or building it.

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps he could still say that there are risks for the "pureness" of our soul's state (good/evil). In any case what you attach to it as its mode, its state, is not eternal. We live particular states from one second to another.

Sure, not target, but the way is important  ;)

[GUNWOUNDS]

"some weird Catholic hocuspocus" (quoted from another person that I asked about last night). A Christian told me that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

So you expect our knowledge of the scientific world to involve demons and demonic possessions in the near future? Otherwise your post was made in jest.

Well.... its not too hard for me to imagine a time where spirits wont have to remain hidden any longer..... if an apocalyptic timeline does occur i can see demonic activity happening out in the open... cause there's no need to be quiet about things.. the rapture has passed and by then everyone would be a fool not to believe in the spiritual realm.

[Egeides]

Acriku, I think that we can stay on in the rational realm. If we go back thousand years ago, things were not going the same. The way you think, what you aim at and so on changes many things. Start seeing the world as ruled by hacks and tricks, and you wont be or do the same. Get into Kafka/war/torture/trauma 24/24 hours, and you might be affected. You will be if some parts are hard to fit within the whole of your world vision, as they will need to be organized with the rest, put in parallel. In the meantime, it might be a stress weakening you, a stress from having an unsolved problem to cope with. Just as mourning and such.

[Caid Ivik]

People are not changing generally, present human has same perception as human of 10th century.

[Egeides]

People themselves, agreed. But then I'd rather say how they orient themselves, what they grow attached to. Just as was previously mentioned, souls/beings are souls/beings but what is attached to it might differ.

[Caid Ivik]

That's true; but also within the mentality, I think it isn't accurate to say something general. Some oriented one way others by the other, like in every era. To characterize all people of a certain era you would need to know whole social context between them, what we cannot. How can we say then, that it was ie irational? Because present social context is different, works on different patterns?

[Egeides]

Sorry, I think I didn't use words well, with the implicit they carry.

For those who lived years ago, it could be just as correct to act as they did from the data/tools at their disposal. But "how to act/anything" were less perfectioned.

It"s not before = worst (ups and down, etc) but one cannot make a "perfect guide to X" out of nihil, and guides defending all directions were precised and perfectioned with time. Ineffective parts tended to be let down more than good ones, and some positions were overall defavorised. You then get a noosphere with some statistically-driven tendency/ies, where not each position has its equal share of support. Ghandi said that Truth had a natural advantage (I hope so ;D).

It is some kind of hegelianism out of a "structural newtonian" environment, where energy is put on the structure (which entertains potential). If not enough goes to it, the structure can weaken (disorganized noosphere/economy/yadayada).

So as you implied, same pattern (but different particular patterns within). But also as you mentioned, the general pattern isn't accurate/precise in particular cases; not more than gravity forms natural cases as a whole.

Back to the point:

This human knowledge relies on reliability of information built through years and method, permitting lesser error on the measures and the like. More chaotic areas of knowledge where "everything goes" imply more errors as each bit is less certain. There is a need to ascertain and organize information as one advances, before actually doing anything from there. It can be seriously energy consuming, and it can be even more if one sees no way out, as circular as it might look. This is true intellectually, as well as psychologically and so on: it forms a state. And no one has infinite energy.

PS: I think that this course on Newtonian physics determined alot of my further path. It canalized lots of my energy which otherwise was free to go elsewhere.

[Spectral Paladin]

On the Marie Curie example, how many scientists explored the unknown and were not harmed? Many I believe.

Now, I think it's a very safe bet that demons and the like are product of people's imagination. Humans have always been fascinated by magic, wizardry, demons and similar stuff. Just because some may wish for a personal genie, it doesn't mean it exists.

[GUNWOUNDS]

On the Marie Curie example, how many scientists explored the unknown and were not harmed? Many I believe.

Now, I think it's a very safe bet that demons and the like are product of people's imagination. Humans have always been fascinated by magic, wizardry, demons and similar stuff. Just because some may wish for a personal genie, it doesn't mean it exists.

[Spectral Paladin]

Well I hadn't posted since you posted the marie curie example.

Now if you mean that I haven't seen a demon or a man possessed, that would be correct. However, I do know there are insane people, making absurd claims; I believe that someone who claims to be possessed by a demon falls in that category.

This topic however, does not boil down to the wager. By studying these books, you can find out whether they are a pile of nonsense. The only thing that would stop you is the fear of rendering yourself vulnerable - a cleverly implied threat.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well I hadn't posted since you posted the marie curie example.

Now if you mean that I haven't seen a demon or a man possessed, that would be correct. However, I do know there are insane people, making absurd claims; I believe that someone who claims to be possessed by a demon falls in that category.

This topic however, does not boil down to the wager. By studying these books, you can find out whether they are a pile of nonsense. The only thing that would stop you is the fear of rendering yourself vulnerable - a cleverly implied threat.

True they could be insane... but the circumstances must be analyzed as well.  If my own mother who is quite a normal and happy woman started clawing at the walls till her nails broke off all bloodied and then started chewing on the walls and broke all her teeth and then had super human strength where she could throw me into a wall and we had to tie her down with chains and she began to speak in double voice and in other languages... i would first take her to the doctor and see if she was on drugs or had epilepsy... if she had none.... then my next assumption would be demon possession. "Insanity" would not be a satisfactory explanation for me.  And i wouldnt be making that decision based on the fact that i wanted a "personal genie"..... thats would be an insulting assumption.  I would be making that decision based on the fact that science didnt have the satisfactory answers and so i would be looking for supernatural answers.

[Spectral Paladin]

Personal genie refers to those who hope to summon demons and have them do what they want.

I haven't heard of a situation like the one you described. Even if such a situation existed, it could be that current science could not provide satisfactory answers; it doesn't mean there aren't. Remember that people in the past could not explain a solar eclispe, an earthquake or a volcano eruption; I bet that many attributed those to a god of their imagination, or a spell of some wizard.