possession and exorcism

[Dude_Doc]

Demon's tactics most likely change with the changing times and its probably best for them to keep quiet and in the shadows and make people think that spirits dont exist at all, rather than possess people and cause a huge scene that might actually reinforce others's faith.

Then I guess the demons have made a great job. Why? Because modern medicine, as one example, has provided cures for many diseaces and ills - something the "Heavens" have not given us since the days of Jesus. But the medicine and cures have actually helped people, made them happy. Of course people question God and their own faith, when we humans help each other, when we do everything ourselves without any kind of help from the heavens.

I mean, this is how humans work. If the demons somehow changed form and started "possessing" people in order to invent a cure for cancer and AIDs, prociding answers for the great questions about the universe, maybe even making a "scope" pointing at the right direction in the sky, so that we make contact with another alien race - then practically, the have won, is this not true?

And what about the internet? Free porn, free "un-Christian" discussions, satanistical message boards, pedophiles, necrophiles, and everything else of that kind of unspeakable garbage that the internet consists of up to 90%.

But this is progress. While people are cured, they loose their faith in the supernatural, but they are cured - they become happy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Then I guess the demons have made a great job. Why? Because modern medicine, as one example, has provided cures for many diseaces and ills - something the "Heavens" have not given us since the days of Jesus. But the medicine and cures have actually helped people, made them happy. Of course people question God and their own faith, when we humans help each other, when we do everything ourselves without any kind of help from the heavens.

I mean, this is how humans work. If the demons somehow changed form and started "possessing" people in order to invent a cure for cancer and AIDs, prociding answers for the great questions about the universe, maybe even making a "scope" pointing at the right direction in the sky, so that we make contact with another alien race - then practically, the have won, is this not true?

And what about the internet? Free porn, free "un-Christian" discussions, satanistical message boards, pedophiles, necrophiles, and everything else of that kind of unspeakable garbage that the internet consists of up to 90%.

But this is progress. While people are cured, they loose their faith in the supernatural, but they are cured - they become happy.

hah.. you actually think that pills and drugs make people happy?

[TMA_1]

Well what many dont realize is that even to some churches, possessions are somewhat of a mystery. In my practice of faith I have studied much by myself and I am trying still to learn some greek and hebrew to study the oldest most exact texts of the word. Anyways one part of my study was demonology and the "occult". It really wasent that important and I probably shouldnt have gotten into it as much as I did because I am not a pastor, and that really is more in the venue of pastoral work. Anyways as I said it is kinda a mystery. Most demonic possession isnt seen, it isnt meant to be seen! Satan is a master of his craft, which is manipulation. Many leaders of governments throughout history were probably possessed, it is even mentioned once in Daniel when Gabriel had to fight off the "prince of persia". This is referring to a "world ruler" demon. These demons are in the higher levels of Satan's forces. They stay in the background and manipulate, even possess individuals in power for the aim of controlling world events for whatever purpose Satan has. Whether it be in the short term, or even in the long term spanning the history of this planet. This kind of possession isnt seen because manipulation requires subtlety. In fact most possessions arent outward or visible.

This is why it is so strange that possessions take place. Why would demons openly show themselves to people? On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power? These questions cannot be answered because it would just be speculation. I have an assumption, but it is just that and I want to keep it that way because I dont want to add to the scriptures, that is a veeeery bad thing to do obviously.

anyways my assumption is that not all demons are really united to Satan. If the followers of Satan are rebels, then who is to say that they would stay united under the power of satan? Splinter groups have always existed in history when talking about revolutions and such. Could it be that these demons have no allegiance? That these are rogue demons trying to escape the chains of darkness? Could it be that these demons are just plain crazy? I have no idea, dont want to make assumptions concrete, but it is definitely a mystery.

[TMA_1]

well I am a huge fan of Tolkien, read most of his books about the history of Arda, and though he does not like Alegory, he does stated that it is a reflection of judeo christian ideas with northern european mythology. So that is probably why you see that.

It isnt anything silly either, the fact that you think it is so silly shows that Satan is a genius at what he does.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well what many dont realize is that even to some churches, possessions are somewhat of a mystery. In my practice of faith I have studied much by myself and I am trying still to learn some greek and hebrew to study the oldest most exact texts of the word. Anyways one part of my study was demonology and the "occult". It really wasent that important and I probably shouldnt have gotten into it as much as I did because I am not a pastor, and that really is more in the venue of pastoral work. Anyways as I said it is kinda a mystery. Most demonic possession isnt seen, it isnt meant to be seen! Satan is a master of his craft, which is manipulation. Many leaders of governments throughout history were probably possessed, it is even mentioned once in Daniel when Gabriel had to fight off the "prince of persia". This is referring to a "world ruler" demon. These demons are in the higher levels of Satan's forces. They stay in the background and manipulate, even possess individuals in power for the aim of controlling world events for whatever purpose Satan has. Whether it be in the short term, or even in the long term spanning the history of this planet. This kind of possession isnt seen because manipulation requires subtlety. In fact most possessions arent outward or visible.

This is why it is so strange that possessions take place. Why would demons openly show themselves to people? On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power? These questions cannot be answered because it would just be speculation. I have an assumption, but it is just that and I want to keep it that way because I dont want to add to the scriptures, that is a veeeery bad thing to do obviously.

anyways my assumption is that not all demons are really united to Satan. If the followers of Satan are rebels, then who is to say that they would stay united under the power of satan? Splinter groups have always existed in history when talking about revolutions and such. Could it be that these demons have no allegiance? That these are rogue demons trying to escape the chains of darkness? Could it be that these demons are just plain crazy? I have no idea, dont want to make assumptions concrete, but it is definitely a mystery.

Wow!... nice thoughts there TMA.  I really dont give you enough credit, cause you sure can think critically. Very nice analysis about the hierarchy, and very cool assumption about the rebel demons, splinter groups, and insane demons....you really opened my eyes and gave me a new way of looking at it..... thanks man. ;)

[Acriku]

This is all what I expected. We don't see demonic possessions because Satan works in evil and subtle ways. He's "behind the scenes." Many leaders must've been possessed, because it mentions an example in the Bible (the same book that proposes the existences of these demons). But nowadays, hardly anybody important is possessed, and why? We don't really know, but we have cool guesses and stories.

You guys aren't being very critical, or have any sense of skepticism that I can see. I mean really. Splinter cells of demons? Rogue demons? Satan's plans for world domination? You are creative, I'll give you that. But let's snap back into reality. This demon thing is going off on a lot of speculation and cool stories. I'd dare take it with a grain of salt.

[Caid Ivik]

Primarily, they aren't serious. There is no such way as a "conflict" between God and devil, no special "work". There is only morale and its following, resp.ignorance. When someone knows morale, knows its meaning, sees no argument against and still disapproves it then ok, call him evil, but why should we say he is an imp. Demon is a word defined by Socrates as conscience, while there is no such word in Bible. Devil, the corruption, selfishness and such sinful states of soul, yes, those are present, simply not everyone is good. But this could never be described by terms of earthly politics, that's bizarre and inaccurate, to euphemize it...

[TMA_1]

There is mention of Satan clearly in Job, when he confronts God in Heaven. Also it mentions the fallen ones who slept with women to taint the line of humanity before the deluge. Angels are mentioned many times and their counterpart is not just assumed.

Well of course it all fits into your opinions Acriku because you dont believe in this stuff. If you ddi believe like many do it would fit in perfectly into your logic, sometimes it is a matter of perception.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Job is a book of many allegories, as you surely know. About nephilim we also can't say they were "former angels", as they are described as material beings and for your faith it has perhaps a same value as age of primogens.

[Dude_Doc]

hah.. you actually think that pills and drugs make people happy?

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces. Recently I saw a small documentary about robotics, and how they literally "fixed" robotic arms for a man without any. I mean the future cures for cancer and AIDs. I mean that these things helps people without one being fithful in any way - thus people loosing their faith in religion just because ever since religion was ever thought about, it has only brought war and massacre.

Then look at science. Have it murdered people? Sure, indirectly it has - but it wasn't for the sake of "the atomic bomb", or for the sake of DNA. Science has provided so much understanding and so much to ease our everyday problems - and what have religion given us? Submission and enslavement - all in the "will of God".

So, what I meant is that people will look at science and say that it has given people much more than religion ever did.

On top of that why would demons possess people with no real power?

I think you must take into consideration that these demons probably has a, what can you call it, a future vision. The smallest actions can have a very great effect on the future. All it took for Hitler to become a dictator was that he failed on one test (which he even tried again of completing) when he was still in art school. This may or may not have to do with possession, but just an example.

[GUNWOUNDS]

This is all what I expected. We don't see demonic possessions because Satan works in evil and subtle ways. He's "behind the scenes." Many leaders must've been possessed, because it mentions an example in the Bible (the same book that proposes the existences of these demons). But nowadays, hardly anybody important is possessed, and why? We don't really know, but we have cool guesses and stories.

You guys aren't being very critical, or have any sense of skepticism that I can see. I mean really. Splinter cells of demons? Rogue demons? Satan's plans for world domination? You are creative, I'll give you that. But let's snap back into reality. This demon thing is going off on a lot of speculation and cool stories. I'd dare take it with a grain of salt.

    Acriku... lets get something straight... i dont have to "not" believe in demons to convince myself that i am "smart".

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces. Recently I saw a small documentary about robotics, and how they literally "fixed" robotic arms for a man without any. I mean the future cures for cancer and AIDs. I mean that these things helps people without one being fithful in any way - thus people loosing their faith in religion just because ever since religion was ever thought about, it has only brought war and massacre.

Then look at science. Have it murdered people? Sure, indirectly it has - but it wasn't for the sake of "the atomic bomb", or for the sake of DNA. Science has provided so much understanding and so much to ease our everyday problems - and what have religion given us? Submission and enslavement - all in the "will of God".

So, what I meant is that people will look at science and say that it has given people much more than religion ever did.

I think you must take into consideration that these demons probably has a, what can you call it, a future vision. The smallest actions can have a very great effect on the future. All it took for Hitler to become a dictator was that he failed on one test (which he even tried again of completing) when he was still in art school. This may or may not have to do with possession, but just an example.

[Dante]

I'm not talking about pills and drugs that sedates people, I'm talking about the medicine and cures for real deseaces.

Diseases. Yes, I know it's a small and unimportant point when compared to the thread as a whole that I really should be replying to, but this has been at the back of my mind for the best part of half an hour, itching. It's 'diseases.'

...There. I feel better.

[Acriku]

I'm all fine with people believing in other gods and stuff. I can discuss against it, but I'm fine with it. It's when people start talking about demon conspiracies and splinter demons, rogue demons, etc, that just really calls for someone to pull the Reality bell. I would act the same if someone started talking about Santa's workings in the North Pole. Rogue elves and splinter elves would be treated the same way. I'm also still just amazed that people I've known to be critical and skeptical in the past believe in this deep of stuff. I thought we as a species grew past the conspiracy of Satan trying to dominate the world and possess people for his evil doings. Tell me, if you believe this is all true, then is the reason people claim every time something bad happens to them (Satan and his demons at work) valid? Could you say they were wrong and still say they exist?

[Caid Ivik]

People don't like any God over them so they created Satan and his dread legions to put their anger on.

[Egeides]

It seems to me that this passage to "demon/bad entities control the world" has the issue of getting the "dark" controlling the place (just as demons/angels-worshipping societies). Basically, since ever, ANYTHING happens and it is possible to put it on the back of some animist spirits, pagan divinities, demon, you name it. Thus, it is then true that to dwell in such a world (to the extreme: get into incantations and trying to believe them to empower them, etc.) actually brings un-truth, destruction, and ultimately some evil. It "obscures" certain things and renders tools to get out of mud inefficient (by Manichean elements not based on un-shifty mecanisms we can structurally act on).

It brings a serious vagueness to any evaluation of the world. This is like a plus/minus 10 mL instrument imprecision in chemistry, where you got to take 30 mL... I propose to get better measurement tool.

This is one aspect of what I mean by "booby-traped" area, as if not looked with good understanding of tools, it can affect one's capacities. As a thinking mode, it's risky... A bit like basing our evaluations on "future divination" and such. It is leading to worst, the only way out that I see being reliable tools to look at this.

Notice that it would be a sophism to say that what I brought shows the non-existence of demons. But what it does show is that it's not just about if evil propagates naturally or by personalized intermediates. Simply mixing things can obscure human minds and limit capacities. When some Chrtistians/else start doing incantation-magic and believe in it, this isn't part of the Christian message.

This is to let devils and their study take over. Such topics are "devil-ish" by nature (as spying for conspiracy theorists). There's a serious need to bring the opposite of such compass-distorting areas, barem of truthness and Truth seeking (best reliability possible, minimal error, etc.), which Christianity is about (not lying, etc.). Diminishing the shades by "good measures".

Above each shade is the sun. It'll be a world of shadows as more and more of what is looked is the shadows themselves, rather than considering a wider intelligible "shadows-light hitting obstacles" relation.

[TMA_1]

Well Acriku, billions have the same "extreme" faith as I do in this world, its just that the centralization of secular ideas dwells in the west and far east. To those who believe though, your notions of a world bound only to itself without spiritual rules and laws, and spiritual history are silly.

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps we do so in such numbers, but you can't say these billions have no critical thinking.

[Dude_Doc]

If you cant think of any positive things that religion has done for the world then i am gonna assume you are a poor thinker.

Well, give me a great example (except charity organizations).

Secondly, what will science do for you if an afterlife exists? Absolutely nothing....

Yes, but that is if we are 100% sure of an afterlife in the first place. Besides, if an afterlife does exist, it would also depend on what kind of afterlife that is. A better world, or heaven, or reincarnation. And what would we want of science if a better place existed after life?

whereas faith can have both a positive effect on both the material world and the afterlife.

Not necessarily (in the material world). 

Meaning if God exists then anything we do scientifically for good purposes was only possible because he provided the raw materials in the first place...all reason, intelligence, materials, everything would technically flow downward from God so patting yourself on the back for being smart and creating a mechanical arm or vaccine is pretty silly.

Well, in fact I am pretty disgraced towards humanity since most of the time we so behave in selfish, disgusting and twisted ways. Of course I aknowledge the good things we have done, but right now I don't see a very free and uniting future for man (but this may be just a way of looking at the glass half-full or half-empty).

But once again, since we have no definite proof of God, we can't really say "thanks" to somebody, and of course it ends up with "us patting ourselves". I'm sorry, but we are living in a very materialistic world today - we need proof in a way that we can toutch, taste, smell and feel in any possible way known to man. May it even be the apocalypse. That's the way we are created.

Diseases.

I'm going to tease you with "decease" for the rest of your life.  ;D

[Egeides]

Otherman:

Religion brought many to do everything they could for betterment. As for how selfish the world is, well religion is exactly about trying to do the best on this aspect. When a stranger welcomes me and helps me because of what he thinks is the best for him to do, and that this "best" comes from religion, I see that he isn't acting selfish (whattever the others).

About being sure of something, well you do trust your wife/girlfriend or that she loves you. Personally, I can't be sure in the absolute that you exist, and it's not so much of an issue. Science is good to verify empirically, but as any set of instruments its very nature form its capacities and limits.

Now back on topic:

For some, demons are a way to fill the gap of "know that you don't know". When the rest fails, this is still more reliable than what is left of a very dim presence of verified/pragmatic cause-effect reasons. This is the issue, and what this kind of "dwelling in the dark" can bring of darkness/blindness. There is a need to understand how "to not know" works, to see that not knowing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There's a need to deal with unreliable fields of knowledge correctly. Otherwise, demons in whattever way or forms can take over.

[Dude_Doc]

Religion brought many to do everything they could for betterment. As for how selfish the world is, well religion is exactly about trying to do the best on this aspect.

Indeed the teachings of religion do motivate people to do better, I can't argue about that, but if we see it historically: even religion has been corrupted into a system only profitable to the highest brass. It was only recently been "liberalized" (and even that is very restricted to Europe), we can still see some very conservative and restraining courses being taken in every part of the world.

Anyways, wether religion is good or bad can be discussed in another topic. My point in this discussion is that science has helped people "in reality", that is, they have provided direct treatment to any problems. Religion don't do this. Religion can consult, yes, but not cure a cancer or AIDs, or create robotic/biological replacement for a physical part in the body.

For example, let's imagine that the year is 2105. Robotics have developed on a grand scale, finetuned into the smallest particle. A man has a son. His son is injured in an accident, and looses both of his eyes. He can go to church, and pray that his son is going to make it the rest of his life without his eyes, or, he can go to a doctor/"mechanic" and get new eyes for his son. And you don't have to pray for new eyes, or go to church. You don't even have to believe that it is possible.

What I am saying here is that because of this, people will loose faith. And not simply because of the replacement of organs, or cures for various diseases, but because science also explains logically how everything works. Mathimatically, physically, bilogically etc., without anyone having to pray to a god, or go to any church. So, in order for people to regain faith they must have proof of God. Let it be something that stunns everyone, some unexplainable and undeniable act of God. All it requires is 5 minutes of miracle, nothing more.

When a stranger welcomes me and helps me because of what he thinks is the best for him to do, and that this "best" comes from religion, I see that he isn't acting selfish (whattever the others).

Not necessary. Psychology explains that working together is benefits both parts than being selfish. I believe you know it as "prisoner's dilemma". It's a evolutionary programming of humans that allows us to do this, not necessarily moral law.

About being sure of something, well you do trust your wife/girlfriend or that she loves you.

As harsh as this may sound, I don't trust anything. It has been prooven that love lasts for about 4-5 years, then our "chemical kicks" are not enough to keep us together, and so we search other attractive males/females. This can also be parallelled with any lifeform: replication. By only loving one partner for a whole life is not very beneficial, the spicies will not develop as fast. But if we are attracted to more females, then we will also make more offsprings, which is the whole point of a spicies: survival and replication.

Then, of course, there are people who trust each other, but let us consider that many people also keep things hidden throughout their whole life. But of course, there are many kinds of trust. I trust that no one will take my books on a lesson in class when I go to the bathroom (yes, it's a little slap where I go), or take my seat, and so on. But even this kind of trust also needs a, what I would call, "situation evaluation", that is: is my class a group of thieves?, have anyone lost their books/things during a lesson before?, who is the person sitting next to me, how long have I known him, can I trust him not to take my books?, and so on. It's not that I stand there like some demented idiot and think these things out everytime, it's a big flash of consideration my brain is calculating out in less than a second.

The same thing happens in countries too. When a country has almost zero crime, people are more open because they have evaluated the situation as "not dangerous". If we look at the country again in 50 years, we see that crime has risen by 500%, and survelliance, police and defence is common. People have evaluated that situation as dangerous, thus the increase of security devices, police and survelliance.

Personally, I can't be sure in the absolute that you exist, and it's not so much of an issue.

:) Have you ever had the thought that you may be the only person really alive, and that everything you know is just some unimaginable computer simulation? Your family, your friends - nothing of it was or will ever be real. (But don't think too much of this or you'll go insane :D )...

Science is good to verify empirically, but as any set of instruments its very nature form its capacities and limits.

That is true. Can't that also be said about religion?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well Acriku, billions have the same "extreme" faith as I do in this world, its just that the centralization of secular ideas dwells in the west and far east. To those who believe though, your notions of a world bound only to itself without spiritual rules and laws, and spiritual history are silly.

Yea.. i think the problem is that Acriku wants to compare Satan to Santa Claus.

[Acriku]

Yea.. i think the problem is that Acriku wants to compare Satan to Santa Claus.  The problem  is that Satan has a little more backing due to being part of a major religions whereas as Santa is clearly a character that everyone agrees is ficticious.  So we can say for sure that santa claus doesnt exist because he was clearly made up.  Since Satan is part of many major religions of which many intelligent people believe and have faith in then it becomes a matter of you cant really know for sure.

Quite the same evidence to support both's existence, however. Being a part of a major religion is not evidence. Sorry.

Its all very logical and there is no need to ring the "reality bell".... you are just being  a "wet blanket" Acriku. (putting out good ideas like a wet blanket puts out flames).....Plain and simple.  As soon as people start getting ideas to the contrary of what you believe then you start to to panic and try to "call to reality"  Which is stupid cause this universe is mysterious... if you believe that matter of the universe just magically made itself...then to me that is just as silly as religion is silly to you.  I dont believe a hamburger is gonna magically appear in my hand without the assistance of a higher being... just as i dont believe a universe wouldnt spawn out of nowhere without the assistance of a higher being.  So your call to "reality" is pretty dumb when we dont even know what "reality" is in the first place.

First of all, if the premises are not logical, the conclusion cannot be logical, but that's for another debate ;-) Anyway, it's not that I get antsy when people have ideas to the contrary of what I believe in. It's when people start going so far deep into their own religion, they really do appear to be so far out there that people from an objective standpoint put on their "whatchu talkin' bout Willis?" face and go, "Huh?" And I don't believe matter magically made itself. I'm not sure where you got that from my post.

The major flaw in your reasoning of the hamburger is that if a simple hamburger requires a higher being to make it, then there's even more reason to believe that the higher being requires an even higher being to make. If you disagree and say that God does not need a creator, than neither does the hamburger or the Universe for that matter.

[Caid Ivik]

You make all same error by wild categorizing; to search for a common point between Santa Claus and Satan, and then using is as evidence for truth value of this category, that's apophenia, not a way to argue...

[Acriku]

While it is not the subject of this discussion, it was a point that I brought up to demonstrate how "imaginative" TMA and GUNWOUNDS' talkings of Satan and his demons were. If someone started talking of rogue and splinter elves, which are as logical as rogue and splinter demons are (according to GUNWOUNDS' reasons for the demons' logic, which can be applied to the elves), they would not be taken seriously.