possession and exorcism

[GUNWOUNDS]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

yes it is possible ... and i prefer not to.

[GUNWOUNDS]

campfire stories

Imagine me going back in time... and i walk up to Marie Curie and say "Hey dont mess with those rocks.. they have invisible lasers shooting out of them that cause your DNA strands to be mutated and cause your cells to grow independent of your body...."

She would look at me.. having no knowledge of radioactivity or genetics and probably laugh her ass off.

[Egeides]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

Perhaps he could still say that there are risks for the "pureness" of our soul's state (good/evil). In any case what you attach to it as its mode, its state, is not eternal. We live particular states from one second to another.

[Acriku]

you keep misquoting me.  i said that the books may have academic value and can be studied.  I never said whether i would study them or not.  I said i would not perform any rituals or incantations or advocate that anyone else do them.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  If you dont believe in demon possessions then good for you ACRIKU....since your an atheist it doesnt really make sense for you to be in this conversation at all since your only contribution is a repetition of "i dont believe it".  Let Caid speak for you as he has been since he is actually conversing without his statements degrading into "boogie man" and "campfire" insults.  Not that i am insulted... just i know you are smarter than that and i hate reading your posts when they degrade into kiddy crap.  I mean we all know you dont believe in it so it gets sorta redundant and tiresome to hear it over and over again.  Either take the base assumption that it does exist and participate in the discussion or just watch from the sidelines.  We all know what your beliefs are.

Anyways i think anyone who is interested in this topic should watch the new movie that came out..."The exorcism of Emily Rose"  Its a movie based on a true story about a girl who died during an exoricsm and the priest is put on trial.... they get a methodist DA to prosecute him and the evidence that is presented on both sides is fascinating.

Tell me, how many sects of Christianity believe in demonic possession and that books about demons and the dark stuff are real (this is a real question, not a point I'm trying to make) How many people who claim to be Christians believe in that (this is a point, not a question)? From what I've experienced with the people that I had encountered, not many do. A lot of people brush it off as "some weird Catholic hocuspocus" (quoted from another person that I asked about last night). A Christian told me that. So, it's not that I'm atheist that I'm posting like this. It's because I'm a rational person just like all the others who do believe in Jesus Christ but still do not believe in demonic possession. And sorry for misquoting you, but I could have swore you and TMA were in agreement that even reading the books was harmful. Or maybe it was just TMA... Anyway, academic study is a good thing, I agree. Practicing such, well that's up for debate on how bad it might be.

Imagine me going back in time... and i walk up to Marie Curie and say "Hey dont mess with those rocks.. they have invisible lasers shooting out of them that cause your DNA strands to be mutated and cause your cells to grow independent of your body...."

She would look at me.. having no knowledge of radioactivity or genetics and probably laugh her ass off.  She wouldnt believe me.  She wouldnt believe what i said exists. How could a rock possibly emit an invisible laser that would cause her body to kill itself?  HAH!  To her she was just looking at some rocks and what i was saying was mere "campfire stories".  Its just harmless rocks.

So you expect our knowledge of the scientific world to involve demons and demonic possessions in the near future? Otherwise your post was made in jest.

[TMA_1]

hmm I am not speaking for everyone obviously, but I think you guys kind of miss the point on why certain people just wont get into this stuff. Many follow the scriptures of the bible literally, this already should show you empirical thinkers something. not all of us believe that knowledge in itself is the most important thing to gain in life, worldly knowledge that is. We all want knowledge, dont think I dontwant to explore every good and evil path at times, but it just isnt healthy for some christians. On top of that if you follow the bible literally, there are some things that God just outright forbids. The reason why is that these kinds of things directly put you in contact with evil forces. Unlike most forms of evil which have a more or less indirect route to the fall, these kinds of texts offer you a direct access to powers that shouldnt be tampered with if you believe in christ. Many people who practice this stuff after awhile will believe in higher powers, that is the creepiest thing about it. They will see it all from an opposite paradigm, and that is aboutt he worst position you can be in as a christian.lol

[Egeides]

On a similar note, the Bible prohibits to try to foresee the future by astrology or whattever.

I guess I could see the point behind, in which sense it could be incoherent with the Bible. It's an area which seems land mined, with so much blehbleh that one can put 90% of a life's energy into it and hardly advance. Or even be stuck in some swamp of formulaic obscurantist determinism.

Stop running after free lunch of luck jackpot, and get yourself somewhere by good (well-oriented) will. Two opposites: hacking your way or building it.

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps he could still say that there are risks for the "pureness" of our soul's state (good/evil). In any case what you attach to it as its mode, its state, is not eternal. We live particular states from one second to another.

Sure, not target, but the way is important  ;)

[GUNWOUNDS]

"some weird Catholic hocuspocus" (quoted from another person that I asked about last night). A Christian told me that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

So you expect our knowledge of the scientific world to involve demons and demonic possessions in the near future? Otherwise your post was made in jest.

Well.... its not too hard for me to imagine a time where spirits wont have to remain hidden any longer..... if an apocalyptic timeline does occur i can see demonic activity happening out in the open... cause there's no need to be quiet about things.. the rapture has passed and by then everyone would be a fool not to believe in the spiritual realm.

[Egeides]

Acriku, I think that we can stay on in the rational realm. If we go back thousand years ago, things were not going the same. The way you think, what you aim at and so on changes many things. Start seeing the world as ruled by hacks and tricks, and you wont be or do the same. Get into Kafka/war/torture/trauma 24/24 hours, and you might be affected. You will be if some parts are hard to fit within the whole of your world vision, as they will need to be organized with the rest, put in parallel. In the meantime, it might be a stress weakening you, a stress from having an unsolved problem to cope with. Just as mourning and such.

[Caid Ivik]

People are not changing generally, present human has same perception as human of 10th century.

[Egeides]

People themselves, agreed. But then I'd rather say how they orient themselves, what they grow attached to. Just as was previously mentioned, souls/beings are souls/beings but what is attached to it might differ.

[Caid Ivik]

That's true; but also within the mentality, I think it isn't accurate to say something general. Some oriented one way others by the other, like in every era. To characterize all people of a certain era you would need to know whole social context between them, what we cannot. How can we say then, that it was ie irational? Because present social context is different, works on different patterns?

[Egeides]

Sorry, I think I didn't use words well, with the implicit they carry.

For those who lived years ago, it could be just as correct to act as they did from the data/tools at their disposal. But "how to act/anything" were less perfectioned.

It"s not before = worst (ups and down, etc) but one cannot make a "perfect guide to X" out of nihil, and guides defending all directions were precised and perfectioned with time. Ineffective parts tended to be let down more than good ones, and some positions were overall defavorised. You then get a noosphere with some statistically-driven tendency/ies, where not each position has its equal share of support. Ghandi said that Truth had a natural advantage (I hope so ;D).

It is some kind of hegelianism out of a "structural newtonian" environment, where energy is put on the structure (which entertains potential). If not enough goes to it, the structure can weaken (disorganized noosphere/economy/yadayada).

So as you implied, same pattern (but different particular patterns within). But also as you mentioned, the general pattern isn't accurate/precise in particular cases; not more than gravity forms natural cases as a whole.

Back to the point:

This human knowledge relies on reliability of information built through years and method, permitting lesser error on the measures and the like. More chaotic areas of knowledge where "everything goes" imply more errors as each bit is less certain. There is a need to ascertain and organize information as one advances, before actually doing anything from there. It can be seriously energy consuming, and it can be even more if one sees no way out, as circular as it might look. This is true intellectually, as well as psychologically and so on: it forms a state. And no one has infinite energy.

PS: I think that this course on Newtonian physics determined alot of my further path. It canalized lots of my energy which otherwise was free to go elsewhere.

[GUNWOUNDS]

On the Marie Curie example, how many scientists explored the unknown and were not harmed? Many I believe.

Now, I think it's a very safe bet that demons and the like are product of people's imagination. Humans have always been fascinated by magic, wizardry, demons and similar stuff. Just because some may wish for a personal genie, it doesn't mean it exists.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well I hadn't posted since you posted the marie curie example.

Now if you mean that I haven't seen a demon or a man possessed, that would be correct. However, I do know there are insane people, making absurd claims; I believe that someone who claims to be possessed by a demon falls in that category.

This topic however, does not boil down to the wager. By studying these books, you can find out whether they are a pile of nonsense. The only thing that would stop you is the fear of rendering yourself vulnerable - a cleverly implied threat.

True they could be insane... but the circumstances must be analyzed as well.  If my own mother who is quite a normal and happy woman started clawing at the walls till her nails broke off all bloodied and then started chewing on the walls and broke all her teeth and then had super human strength where she could throw me into a wall and we had to tie her down with chains and she began to speak in double voice and in other languages... i would first take her to the doctor and see if she was on drugs or had epilepsy... if she had none.... then my next assumption would be demon possession. "Insanity" would not be a satisfactory explanation for me.  And i wouldnt be making that decision based on the fact that i wanted a "personal genie"..... thats would be an insulting assumption.  I would be making that decision based on the fact that science didnt have the satisfactory answers and so i would be looking for supernatural answers.

[GUNWOUNDS]

By studying these books, you can find out whether they are a pile of nonsense. The only thing that would stop you is the fear of rendering yourself vulnerable - a cleverly implied threat.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Personal genie refers to those who hope to summon demons and have them do what they want.

I haven't heard of a situation like the one you described. Even if such a situation existed, it could be that current science could not provide satisfactory answers; it doesn't mean there aren't. Remember that people in the past could not explain a solar eclispe, an earthquake or a volcano eruption; I bet that many attributed those to a god of their imagination, or a spell of some wizard.

Well thats assuming that spirits are incapable of interacting with the material universe.  If demons are capable of poltergeist activity (spirits that can interact with material objects).. then something could happen both naturally and supernaturally and you wouldnt be able to tell the difference.  If a poltergeist could throw a chair across a room... why couldnt it go between the tectonic plates of the earth and cause an earthquake?

[TMA_1]

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

hope that helps a bit gunwounds :)

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok, but surely you don't mean every similar phenomenon in the past was caused by a demon? If not, then it's certain that people indeed attributed natural phenomena to fictitious supernatural forces. This could well be the case with your supposedly possessed mother. She could have superb strength for which there is a logical answer. Just an answer that current science cannot provide.

I think it's a matter of probability. By studying those books, the rituals they contain, the time and the place they were written, the people they are written by, the reasons why they wrote them, and all other conditions under which they were written, I can reach a point where I can say "I 'm almost certain this is crap" or "I believe these things exist".

We can never be sure about anything till we have all the answers.

Agreed.

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

hope that helps a bit gunwounds :)

Good info... thanks.

[Acriku]

    Hmm well the bible talks about Jesus casting out demons of several people ...such as "legion" ... and others....so ask your "christian friends" about that and let me know their response... i would like to know their opinion........ from what i just said i am assuming its not just a "catholic thing" ... however the thing that does seperate catholics from many other denominations is that catholics believe that if someone IS demon possessed that they can perform an exorcism.... i am not sure if any other denominations attempt exorcisms.  One might conclude that the non-catholic denominations dont perform exorcisms because they dont believe in demon possession.... however its more likely that they believe its impossible to become demon possessed anymore due to god's grace.  I am not a theologian so i cannot say for certain.

Well these guys are also the Christians who don't believe in Noah's Flood (a story to them, in other words). So, this is probably just another metaphor to them. I'll ask one of them next time he's over. TMA had said, 'real' possessions are rare - why is that do you think? If a demon can possess someone, why can't it be done more often? If they are real, where is God protecting us? I would agree with the grace of God protecting us part, because that makes sense. But then again, that means those 'real' possessions are fake, the Catholic church is full of it, and there are a lot of suckers in the world.

If God is so adament about us having free will, demonic possessions would be inexistant - God wouldn't allow our free will to be strayed by Satan's demons. If you guys are going to say that God favors free will, be consistent with it and denounce the existence of demonic possessions. If we have to go through evil and suffering just because God wants us to have free will, then by golly we should be immune to demonic possessions.

As for spirits not having to hide anymore because it's Apocalypse time, yeah... I expect Santa Claus to come out of hiding, too, because it's Christmas time. Let's see which happens first. But hey, that's your belief and everyone is entitled to their own belief, no matter how silly.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i answered your questions in the posts above acriku.

[Acriku]

I apologize for not getting that out of your previous post. You pretty much answered my questions, except for the part about God letting us get possessed. Doesn't he want us to have free will? Even if we "want" to get possessed, I don't think God would let us give up our free will. Do you?

[Caid Ivik]

I'm glad we are finally turning to definitions of terms, what should be done in the beginning ;)

generally exorcism outside of catholic dogma is varied. There are a lot of hustlers out there that do "exorcisms" for money, like Bob Larson. Some take on new age approaches, and some do them in extreme ignorance, usually charismatic evangelical types. these three types always have major issues and shouldnt be trusted. the "demons" they cast out arent really there, but are assumed to be out of ignorance and bad analysis, or in the case of money chasers, out of greed. All of these cases are very bad for the "possessed" individual's mental health for painfully obvious reasons. Real possession cases are rare and when they are discovered and analysed by a good pastor (one duty of a pastor is dealing with possession) an exorcism should take place.

To speak for mother Church, exorcism isn't based on any dogma. It's a normal ritual made ie during bapticism as "cleansing of soul". As catechism says, for any other form the situation needs to be analysed if it isn't just a psychic disease (1637). Also word "demon" is unknown to Catholic Church (as it means in fact any spiritual being), there is used only term "devil" (diabolos - One throwing cross, 2851), which does not have to be defined as a "separate power" from the possessed soul. English has a good term "vice", which may be perfectly descriptive. We can't think of it as some kind of material parasite, which could be removed; exorcism is a reshaping of soul itself.

[Digital Guerrilla]

people here seem to think of demons as beasts or something with predictable behavior... it is more likely that they are unpredictable due to being quite clever since they are obviously extremely old and experienced. The Screw Tape Letters really puts it into perspective.

It can be said that "demons" are Angelic beings that have fallen from the grace of God (for those who believe in faith). These spiritual forces are eons old in this universe and know more about man than humans know about themselves. It is hard for this generation of man to believe in something (besides what we see with our eyes) because we are being taught that there is nothing to gain from these beliefs because they come without "material value".

(@Gunz & TMA-1)

As for the actual demon possession physical possession is not possible but there is spiritual possession and if I am correct TMA-1 hinted as such in a previous post.