possession and exorcism

[GUNWOUNDS]

TMA stop apologizing... Ray Godly is the last person that should be calling anyone "weird"... after reading his signature and his post history i think people in white coats are looking for him.  No offense Ray.

[Kiyouta]

Oh my... hehehe good call. ;)

[Caid Ivik]

Well books like The Key of Solomon, The Lesser Key of Solomon, The Fairy Dragon, the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, Bel and the Dragon, The Necromantia, stuff like that. Dont even attempt at reading or getting into them. Basically they are books to channel "angels" and demons to do your will, and were mainly used by Kabalists and occultists during the dark ages. They are texts and practices from much older texts from ancient times. They are a direct access to stuff that are not meant for people to enter.

This stuff cannot really be documented. It is very hush hush and only those in the know really know of these things. Nothing will satisfy your curiosity though, not meaning any offense its just that there is nothing concrete about it unless you put your nose into things that shouldnt be messed with. I highly suggest staying away though and please dont try to research this stuff, I mean it. It is dark, it is evil, and just take my word for it, it is real. When you hear stories of people chased by a small satanic group wherever they go because they cant hide, their whereabouts are always known and nothing can be done to run away. When you hear abou these people entering into catholic convents for protection and their life is all but ruined. When you hear about people going insane from this stuff, it is all too real. The media just doesnt talk about this stuff though, I believe it is because of supernatural reasons. I stopped my research on this stuff myself because I got too interested. It is dangerous and all too real. I know a few people who were either directly involved in satanic practices, and one person who actually was involved in real exorcisms. It is a dark portal, stay away as I said before.

Better enter it than to leave it for dark forces to come, to paraphrase Lothar from WarCraft 2  ;D  But seriously, if we would avoid some questions only because we fear the answer, then we won't understand anything. Religion and science are parted nearly a half millenium and it causes only fear and hostility to each other. While application of them, be it ethics, technology or faith, are on the same ground.

[Acriku]

Caid, I'm agreeing with you more and more these days.

[TMA_1]

there is a problem though caid. Many denominations tell their laypeople not to touch this kind of liturature. I myself dont usually say that a source of information is completely negative, but in this case I do. I have already said why. For a christian to read these texts nearly comes to spiritual suicide.

[TMA_1]

there are no elaborate incantations, elaborate meaning many many steps, following certain symbols in the pages to conjure up certain things at certain moments. I just dont think you guys even know what these books are, it is a LOT different than dungeons and dragons. They use a few real words, but it is completely destroyed by it being a sill (but fun) paper RPG.

As I said, it amounts to spiritual suicide for christians and some others of judeo christian faith. Not so for Kabalists though, as some of their books can be almost identical to the ones listed.

[Caid Ivik]

Hm, there are surely modules concerning quite accurate thaumaturgical techniques... But seriously, there are some important points I have to note about magic and all this stuff. "Channelling" of angels, demons, sephiroth etc was a term used to describe reactions, either (al)chemical or emotional (perhaps mostly in trance or under psychodrug influence). It is a spiritual suicide, but only because many people take faith as a form of extatic drug, to strengthen good feelings like hope etc. Intensivity of pleasure is much more powerful if you take a drug or fall into a specific trance; it is more dangerous, but who sees security if it's about transcendence? My personal opinion is that mysticism arised in judaism, islam and christianity to counter this tradition of emotive pagan religions and to implement their philosophy into it. Kabala and sufi movement were good in this, christians somehow turned only to philosophy, while its "magicians" went to secular (and more effective; that's why so many philosophers end up as biochemists) ways of science or returned to neopagan cults. Or both. I think that last centuries muslims and jews do so as well, so if we wanted occult books to have some "effect", to give us some knowledge, we should explore the context they were made for first.

However, all of this is senseless and has no morale quality. Reading Key of Solomon won't change you anymore than ie building of uranium enrichment facility, it just depends on what intentions you have with it. If you want to learn how to perfectly lie it is different than if you want to learn how to describe something accurately, altough both ways may be based on one book.

Caid, I'm agreeing with you more and more these days.

Interesting  ;D

[TMA_1]

Actually I have thought about how Kabala might have been one of the greatest keys of east meeting west, and how many of the original practices of Kabala actually helped to start mysticism as we know it now. Kabala has been around much longer than people think, and originally it was intended for use to protect one from many of the problems of life using the forces of good and evil. The sepiroth was really just the fundimental basis of what Kabala does, and the net result of following the tree of life is absolute control, and if one attains enough control than the conjuring abilities increase. It is indeed dangerous for a christian to read these books. First of all you dont really "read" them as much as use the diagrams and symbols within them, and the incantations usually written in hebrew or strange afro-semitic type languages. It is dangerous because to become involved in these things as a christian is rejecting the concepts of evil in finding power by means other than God. Solomon was said to practice many of these kinds of rituals, talks about this in Josephus' history of the jews actually. This could have been one of Solomon's downfalls, and not only this but it is said that idol worship grew in israel a little while into his reign. Maybe after marrying one of the princess' of Egypt, he could have picked up some of these mystical practices. But all and all many jews during the age of the prophets and during the silent years totally rejected the practice of mysticism, and not just Pharasees, but other sects as well that didnt have as extreme of a fundimentalist bent.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, sephiroth are a term of medieval kabala, which was, most possibly, on a higher level than that of Solomon (most possibly, his name is used in book just to call for a tradition, as medieval authors usually did). Also, kabala (which is primarily a hermeneutical philosophy) does not give a plan of "world-hacking", it considers God as boundless substance, which is a source of all; only a human handles "all" within rules of "good" and "evil". An abyss of ignorance stays between God and humans, who don't open themselves for His enlightment  ;)

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well, sephiroth are a term of medieval kabala, which was, most possibly, on a higher level than that of Solomon (most possibly, his name is used in book just to call for a tradition, as medieval authors usually did). Also, kabala (which is primarily a hermeneutical philosophy) does not give a plan of "world-hacking", it considers God as boundless substance, which is a source of all; only a human handles "all" within rules of "good" and "evil". An abyss of ignorance stays between God and humans, who don't open themselves for His enlightment

[TMA_1]

Good way of summing it up.

[Caid Ivik]

Nj, but on the other hand, without exploring harmful effects of radioactivity, I would like to know how people would be even able to work at power plants. Every technology, or to be exact, every intentional activity needs some courage.

[Acriku]

Caid is right, the more we know about a subject, the more we know of its dangers and potential uses.There's no value in choosing to be ignorant and hiding under the covers from a book.

[Egeides]

I would rather say: Start by knowing what you're up to, and then go ahead with chosen methods, paces and paths. Not "Sure, read/experience anything." Forces (as military forces) trying to just go further end up stretched out and inefficiently using their energy, and might die.

Marie Curie's example:

Risks are worth it, but a risk/benefit evaluation is advisable to pick the best statistical package. And part of this evaluation is to know to which extent evaluation is dependent on on-the-field info, then forcing the pace down. And some fields are filled with time/energy-consuming booby-traps.

A human's formation:

There are some books I was happy to have read after I had gone through certain thinking/else. I actually even banished some books for a period, and kept a certain order (to develop my own thinking). Read something with some knowledge/formation, and you'll spot different things, altering your mind's path (martial arts consider this in the teaching). Also, what seems like the minimal energy road with a certain formation also misses some other elements (demanding more energy to change road).

Some extreme cases can turn into rational and thereafter psychological/personal pit-holes, as in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (or WW2 Holocaust survivors, differently). We might all have some more benign cicles which are hard to break. I'm still very satisfied of all what Kafka's troubled psyche brought me for example, as he permitted to see some things. Even if it'd be only for Caid's "Better enter it than to leave it for dark forces to come".

[Acriku]

You're right when it comes to physical dangers, e.g. radiation. But books are not even close. There is no harm in reading a book if you're at a mature age and not some impressionable child. No boogiemen will come and haunt you if you read a book.

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps not boogiemen, but maybe feelings of fear or despair, like why children shouldn't watch late horrors. And that exactly is the art of exploration, to have the courage to withstand uneasiness, bad feelings. I think Curie feared also that there may be some "unknown power", which may be to her dangerous, but at least she explored it enough for us to be able to define this threat. What we are unable when it's just a "feeling" of risk.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Sure Marie Curie's sacrifice helped us out... i'm simply saying i'm not gonna be the sacrificial guinea pig....someone else can do it.

[Caid Ivik]

This is your subjective view, altough you are missing a point that Curie wasn't handling "sacrificing" herself intentionally, that was the courage point, she entered an unknown. Generally experience is attained trough facing and solving unknowns. While Key of Solomon isn't that secret as you try to show, while there are many who have read it, do you know about somebody being harmed by it? Either by reading or following it? For I have heard about some artists commiting suicides after reading Kant's Kritik der reinen Vernunft  ;D

[GUNWOUNDS]

Thats not the point spectral...

....to say that books (or any material for that matter) cannot affect you in a negative way is nonsense.... anything you intake into your mind will change you in some way....thats what "exposure" is.

[GUNWOUNDS]

And the universe is still a mystery ....so trying to say that something is most likely a man's imagination wont appeal to me because in this bizarre universe it could be real or man made you never know.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Yes it might affect you in a way, possibly negative. But nowhere near making you vulnerable to possessions.

thats your opinion and i respect that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i understand that..... however my "eternal spirit" ,if it exists, is far too valuable to play dice with.

[Caid Ivik]

If it's ethernal, it is not possible to play dice with it...

[Acriku]

Thats not the point spectral...

....to say that books (or any material for that matter) cannot affect you in a negative way is nonsense.... anything you intake into your mind will change you in some way....thats what "exposure" is.  And you keep missing the point... its not the "study" of the material that would hurt you but the "practice" of it.  Reading about genocide wont cause any ill effects but practicing genocide certainly will.  Just as well reading Solomon's Key wont hurt you but trying to actually use the material could open doors that could allow you to become violent, obsessed with demons, blasphemous of the holy spirit, offending God, or ultimately demon possessed. 

You choose to be ignorant of certain books because you may use it? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to refuse to read about it or of it. When religions speak about possessions and demons harming you, their entire credibility is broken down into campfire stories and should be taken as such.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You choose to be ignorant of certain books because you may use it? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to refuse to read about it or of it. When religions speak about possessions and demons harming you, their entire credibility is broken down into campfire stories and should be taken as such.

you keep misquoting me.  i said that the books may have academic value and can be studied.  I never said whether i would study them or not.  I said i would not perform any rituals or incantations or advocate that anyone else do them.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  If you dont believe in demon possessions then good for you ACRIKU....since your an atheist it doesnt really make sense for you to be in this conversation at all since your only contribution is a repetition of "i dont believe it".  Let Caid speak for you as he has been since he is actually conversing without his statements degrading into "boogie man" and "campfire" insults.  Not that i am insulted... just i know you are smarter than that and i hate reading your posts when they degrade into kiddy crap.  I mean we all know you dont believe in it so it gets sorta redundant and tiresome to hear it over and over again.  Either take the base assumption that it does exist and participate in the discussion or just watch from the sidelines.  We all know what your beliefs are.

Anyways i think anyone who is interested in this topic should watch the new movie that came out..."The exorcism of Emily Rose"  Its a movie based on a true story about a girl who died during an exoricsm and the priest is put on trial.... they get a methodist DA to prosecute him and the evidence that is presented on both sides is fascinating.