The Duncan gholas

[MrFlibble]

SPOILER WARNING!

I'd like to discuss certain points about Duncan Idaho, the character who's present in all Dune novels, so if you haven't read at least one of them, read this at your own risk.

[hide]What do we know about Duncans' lifelines? The original was killed on Dune defending Paul and Jessica ("Dune"). His fist ghola, Hayt, was trained by Tleilaxu to be a Mentat and Zensunni philosopher, and later, upon recovering his original personality, Duncan-Hayt preserved these new mental qualities. Soon after marriage with Alia, Duncan committed suicide, thus helping to defend the Paul's twin children.

The next generation of Duncan gholas used by Lord Leto II were grown by Tleilaxu from the original Duncan cells, as it seems. Only the Duncan in Chapterhaouse has the unique ability to remember all his previous ghola lives along with his original life. Naturally, Chapterhouse Duncan is a Mentat, as inheriting this training from Hayt, while the "Leto series" Duncans seem not to be Mentats, at least it's never mentioned that they are, as they have not got Hayt's memories. Or do they?[/hide]

The Duncan in GEOD remembers his original death at least twice:

I died defending Paul and his mother in a cave-sietch beneath the sands of Dune (p. 45)

"I remember my death," Idaho said. "Harkonnen blades, lots of them trying to get at you and Jessica" (p. 89)

However, on page 46 it is said:

Idaho remembered a strange child - twins, really: Leto and Ghanima, Paul's children, the children of Chani, who had died delivering them.

These are obviously Hayt's memories, as the original Duncan's death happened even before Chani gave birth to the first Paul's son who was killed by Harkonnens. Does this mean all Duncans, or at least this one, did have the memories of Duncan-Hayt? ???

A passage from Chaperhouse:

"I went to Wallach IX at the Tyrant's command," he said. "Oh, yes! I often thought of him as a Tyrant. My orders were to suppress the Mentat school you thought you had hidden there."

<..>

"Consider," he said. "I, a Mentat, forced to suppress a school that trained people the way I was trained." (p. 230)

This suggests Duncan had always been a Mentat, and always had the Duncan-Hayt personality, although he remembered his original death. Either he was a ghola of a ghola, or Tleilaxu messed with his cells and psyche.

What do you think?

[Spectral Paladin]

Certain Duncan gholas requested by Leto II were indeed mentats, but not all of them. Only the Duncan in the last books has the memories of all the previous gholas, since cells from all of them were used for his creation.

[Dante]

Further details on some of the Duncans can be found in the Dune encyclopaedia. He has been a mentat, a swordmaster, a Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach, a woman, a homosexual, Bene Gesserit trained, mad, a musician, addicted to melange, a historian... the list goes on.

[3ngel]

@Dante

Are these informations of Dune Encyclopedia taken from F.H. notes?

In the 6 books there are no traces of such facts about Duncan (Kwisact haderach, homosexual, woman i.e).

In the books its said Tleilaxu had done a KH, but it's not mentioned it was a Duncan Ghola.

[Spectral Paladin]

In the last two books the Bene Gesserit suspect that the Duncan ghola is a tleilaxu attempt at creating a KH.

[Andrew]

@Dante

Are these informations of Dune Encyclopedia taken from F.H. notes?

No. That information was made up by McNelly. But the Dune encyclopedia is a pretty good book about the possibilities of the Dune universe.

[MrFlibble]

OK, I'm putting more specific questions:

If Duncan in GEOD is created from the original cells, why does he have Hayt's memories?

And if he's created from Hayt's cells, or a mix of original and Hayt's cells, why does he remember his original death and doesn't remember Hayt's death (suicide, besically, when he cut his veins with shigawire in COD)?

[Spectral Paladin]

Um, have you read all of COD? Apparently not.

I fail to see where Duncan in GEOD had Hayt's memories.

[Dante]

He referenced the page, didn't he? My edition has the same line ("Idaho remembered a strange child - twins, really: Leto and Ghanima, Paul's children, the children of Chani, who had died delivering them.") on page 47. This occured after the first Duncan's death, which does indeed suggest that the ghola had Hayt's memories. Either that or it is a flaw.

And if he's created from Hayt's cells, or a mix of original and Hayt's cells, why does he remember his original death and doesn't remember Hayt's death (suicide, besically, when he cut his veins with shigawire in COD)?

It is never mentioned that he doesn't remember Haayt's death, is it? And if you mean when he cut his wrists on Salusa Secundus, then he was patched up after that and survived. Hayt died by goading Stilgar into killing him.

[Spectral Paladin]

I didn't notice it, I thought it appeared in a later book. It's on page 47 in my book too. It's obviously a flaw, because if that particular Duncan had Hayt cells he would be a mentat too. Furthermore, it is clear that the Duncan in the last books is the first and only one created by a mixture of cells.

[3ngel]

It's obviously a flaw, because if that particular Duncan had Hayt cells he would be a mentat too.

Not necessarly, Tleilaxu have the possibility to mantain certain characteristic and discard others.

So they would have had the possibily to mix Hiat without the mentat characteristic.

No. That information was made up by McNelly

I see. But even if they can be interesting by themselves, in the end they have no value, as same as BH shits :)

[Spectral Paladin]

Yes they did have that ability, but like I said, it is clear they only did it with the last Duncan.

[Vanguard3000]

(spoilers from just about all the original novels)

I haven't read the books for a while, so my knowledge might be a bit rusty, but my understanding was that the early (i.e. the first Dune trilogy) Tleilaxu methods for creating gholas was largely repair work.  They would take a corpse, and use their tanks to knit the flesh and tissues (stem cells, anyone?), to make them physically 'alive' despite a loss of conscious memory and knowledge due to prolonged brain-death (and in this case, a massive head wound).  They would then reeducate and condition the ghola as they or their client saw fit.  Hayt was able to regain his memory from 'genetic memory', a Jungian concept that Frank was big on (it's also the basis for the Bene gesserit Other Memory), or perhapse simply from the recesses of his subconscious.

Later, during the GEoD era, the Tlailaxu methods became more advanced, until soon only a single strand of DNA was necessary, amking the gholas more like clones than repaired cadavers (I still think 'ghola' is a play on the word 'ghoul').  The Duncans that served Leto II could have been grown from Hayt DNA or the DNA of one of Leto II's other Duncans, instead of that of 'Duncan-prime'.

The Duncan in Heretics/Chapterhouse was perhaps the clone of the clone of the clone...  ... of the clone of Hayt.  So when Murbella... erm... released Duncan's memories, he acquired the memories of all previous Duncans.

[3ngel]

Mmm i dont remember if it's said in the first book that tleilax, make a ghola from a cadaver, but the sure thing is that ALL the duncan are from the original Duncan cells.

This thing is said so much time in all six books. That means that stacked on the original duncan cells, tleilax mix all sort of cells from the other gholas or what they want, until in the last duncan, he has, starting from the original duncan, all the modifications Tleilaxu has ever made to a Duncan.

[MrFlibble]

Um, have you read all of COD? Apparently not.

I read COD about a year ago, and in a rather poor-quality translation, so I've forgotten. I guess I ought to by the English book.

Never the less, if Duncan had Hayt's memories, wouldn't it be natural to remember Hayt's death first, as it was, um, more recent? Or do all gholas have the memory af original death dominating, as their original personality is?

[Mahdi]

Duncan only remembered what happened in his first life.  It's stated over and over and over again, which is why the Heretic/chapterhouse Duncan is so important.

All the times he remembers "Muad'Dib", the twins, etc. are simply continuity errors on Frank and the editors part.  They happen.

Just like Muad'dib changing from a constellation to shadows on the moon.

[Spectral Paladin]

And Scytale becoming a Tleilaxu master.

[Dante]

That isn't inconsistancy, it's explicable.

[Spectral Paladin]

How?

[Dante]

Easy. Face dancers are human. Distorted, but human. Most of their abilities come from conditioning and specialist surgery. Genetic manipulation does the rest. All you need to do is make a ghola of the face dancer, and then change the modifications to the phenotype used by the masters.

The same technique will have been used to make the woman Duncan.

[Tako]

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

[Spectral Paladin]

Easy. Face dancers are human. Distorted, but human. Most of their abilities come from conditioning and specialist surgery. Genetic manipulation does the rest. All you need to do is make a ghola of the face dancer, and then change the modifications to the phenotype used by the masters.

The same technique will have been used to make the woman Duncan.

Not they are not human. As Herbert describes, they 're closer to a colony organism. They can't reproduce.

Even if you are right and it is possible, it's clear that this wasn't Frank Herbert's intention (have a master made out of a face dancer). He implies that Scytale was a Master at the time of Muaddib. If  he remembered he was a face dancer, wouldn't it be mentioned? Reread Heretics and Chapterhouse and you will understand.

[MrFlibble]

Scytale's just a tleilaxian name, I think. I don't remember that there were some special Face Dancer names that could not be used by other Tleilaxu, and vice versa.

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

There are multiple mentions in GEOD that the Duncan was not altered by the Tleilaxu in any way. Leto would definitely detected if there were, and it is suggested some of his Fish Speakers (like Nayla) were trained to detect alterations in Duncans too .

[MrFlibble]

Scytale's just a Tleilaxian name, I think. I don't remember that there were some special Face Dancer names that could not be used by other Tleilaxu, and vice versa.

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

There are multiple mentions in GEOD that the Duncan was not altered by the Tleilaxu in any way. Leto would definitely detect any changes, and it is suggested some of his Fish Speakers (like Nayla) were trained to detect alterations in Duncans too.

[Spectral Paladin]

Scytale's just a Tleilaxian name, I think. I don't remember that there were some special Face Dancer names that could not be used by other Tleilaxu, and vice versa.

It's clear it's the same Scytale since the Scytale in Heretics and Chapterhouse is said to have spoken to Muad dib himself.