3ngel

Personally, i think Dune I is a good book. Dune II is a good sequel and tie with dune very strictly, my impression it that it could be incorporate in the first Dune easily. The plot is strict and the rythm is lined with Dune I (although in some parts more "deep" and "reflecting"). Dune III starts to change rythm with Ghanima, Leto II and the extensive introduction of foreseeing and abomination. Things start to get really serious. Dune IV GEOD it's just the total apotheosis of everything you could imagine in a book. First time i read it i didn't understand quite nothing, but then i had truly an illumination, and as a my post on this forum can witness, starting from that i just can't stop to consider the book the way i do. The other twos V and VI from a narrative point of view are just masterpieces. The rythm is totally changed, and i can say personally, that all is more at a "human dimension". The strong point is the depicting of the characters (just not considering the fantastic plot). You can really feel, see them as you are seeing a tv, and that is somewhat incredible, that is in a way i've never encountered in any books i've read, except pheraps in Stephen King's Dark Tower Esalogy, but even in that case in a minor way. So to end. First 3 books, very good books. GEOD: totally and completely another planet. You'll never read something like that. V and VI fantastic books.

I understand your point TMA-1, but your explanation justifies at all, all the "attitudes" towards the prequels. The point is that, if the prequels announced themselves like a "different way", there would be no problem. In this case we have the Dune, and the prequels. Two different things. No problems, no "attitudes". The problem arise when those as***, dare to say that those s***s are canons, hindering the Encyclopedia, and almost the reprinting of the original Dune novel. You know? I'm almost not being able to find a print of the first book anywhere. But that's only a corollary. Until when they'll admit their books are only a "presumed diversive", totally SEPARATE from THE SIX BOOKS, i'll continue to have that attitude, against persons who had done of ignorance the goal of their life (socio/political/antropological questions? Please, it's a joke? What are you talking about?).

Regarding why KH must be male, i think is a more simple question. I explain. It's a biological-sensation difference. We know that generally to a man correspond a kind of "logical" view of the world, while on a female a "sentimental" view of the world. In other words, man is more "rational", female is more "emotional". And BG are not exception to this, at the opposite they had to suppress emotion 'cause they know the emotions, can damage then. Now if we take this basic concept and put it on the BG high/verydeep plane, we can understand why emotion is so dangereous to them. Take for example the "abomination". Leto as far we know is the only who was able to "win" againsts the abomination. And this because he was able to "rationalize" the process to such a way he understood he had to do compromise with the "first ancestor". He did this, because he totally flew away from the subject he was trying to understand, he completely lost the contact, he was able to totally be un-feeling. And this was possible because he was a man. No woman would ever be able to be so un-feeling. And now we extend this concept to the KH being. We know that a Qwisatz has practically, and IS practically the entire universe, every essence, everything. If we think what can be, to be like this, we can understand how much force is needed not be inglobed and totally blown away by this overhelming state. Only a possibily strong rational being like a male can fight all this. A woman would be completely burnt by the sensations brought by being a KH. We can say that being a KH is like to be an abomination to the nth factor. And we know that BG fear to be abomination. You can imagine why they fear to be KH.

Well, back to the topic. I know about Missionaria Protectiva. But my question was about the very same concept of Kwisatz Haderach. In the sense, from what comes from the same concept of Kwisatz? How BG can know that a Kwisatz "can see where we cannot"? I mean, a Kwisatz was never known or encountered (except by Tleilaxu, but many times later and that's another question), so how can they know what he could or couldn't do?

I was wondering... we all take it for granted the phrase "A man one day will come, the Kwisatz Aderach..." etc etc... But who said this propechy? And why? This is (obviously) not written anywhere, so hipothesys? I think it would be funny to think on :)

'Cause they are too little brained, just to say "What in the world is that GEOD? ???" :D

THIS is fascism. BG can be considered as any form of community with his own rules, and scopes. @zenlogic Paul did not see the Golden Path, 'cause in the final dialogue with Leto he said "Did you see that? I could not see that". And Paul could not see the Golden Path 'cause he was separated from the ultimate essence of the universe. He was an "intruder" in the universe essence so he could only see a portion of it, being the time-space unlimited, and being him limited (because he was not part of the infinity). Leto on the contrary WAS the universe, WAS the space-time. As a very interisting note, the statement "foreseeing is creating" of the first three books, somehow recalls the first interpretation of the Heisenberg postulate, that is you can't "see" a quantistic particle without altering in the same moment you see it, its original state. So "to see is interfering", sound familiar isn't it? :) Starting from GEOD Leto understand the real essence of the universe that is a wave like, so the only way to see is to "became" wave. And this is coherent with the second (and right) interpretation of the Heisenberg principle, that is "we can't define the motion (and the state) of a quantistic particle 'cause it's a wave, and of a wave we can know only one dimension (of two) at once." So the only way to know the motion of a particle would be to be wave. We can't be wave. Being wave is being... and Leto was it :)

The goal of BG is to improve humanity. They don't impose who is human and who is not. The test is a free choice (apart from Paul, but that's a particular case). That's not fascism.

That's the most superficial and erratic opinion ever heard :) Reread at least 4 times GEOD, before saying such things about "final solution" and all the other silly things :) But, just to say. At last the cause was Paul, not Leto. Without Paul, there would be no kwisatz, no jihad, not Leto. Why Leto chose his fate? Well i can't find even one reason (and again you read and read all Leto's thougts), except that he was a Fremen and the tribe is above all (the human tribe). And about the baddies, well i can only say LOL :)

@lord vernius of ix A "chair dog" is a kind of "living chair" that accomodates itself on the forms of the "sitter". Is a Tleilaxu product, obtained through genetic manipulation of... well something :) @GriMFandagO 'Cause the emperor Shaddam IV "forced" them to do so, proposing them to replace the Arkonnen on the planet. The reason at the base of this fact is part of an hidden emperor's plot to get rid of Atreides.

You know TMA, sometimes i forget that Paul could not see the Golden Path. So in this sense he could view from one side the Total Jihad, from another side the "Terrible purpose" that is the trasformation. But he didn't understand the utility of the trasformation, 'cause he could not see very far away from that. Infact in the dialogue with Leto II he said "You could see all that? I didn't see that". Paul was closed into two way: one way to became an aeternal symbol of an infinite blooshell, another way to became something "terrible" he couldn't understand. So in the end he succeded to escape both way becaming nothing more than a blind foreseer. And in fact in the end of the II book he says "I'm free". So i moderate a little my opionion, 'cause he was justified by the "ignorance" :)

My impression, has always been not positive at all about Paul. First he did brought the chaos, when his intention was to bring unity (government of the entire empire). The chaos he brought was not caused voluntary by himself, but it was caused by his inability to administer (and fully understand) the flood and the folds of time. He was overhelmed by something started by himself. In the end, we put on the table, that HE KNEW what was the solution to put and end to all this ("the terrible scope"), and he voluntarly and only FOR FEAR (the second book it's entirly about this fear) he did not choose it. Leto II was a consequence of this fear. I can say that time adapted itself in order to correct the chaos started by Paul. It cames into the mind a phrase i heard somewhere "time has no paradoxes". Leto II was the "auto-healing" of time. Paul in the end is only a useless firestarter from one point, and a puppet of time from another point. In this case i extend the concept of TMA1 saying that it was the Time that made Paul born, in order to correct its own stagnation, and made born Leto II in order to balance the "pendulum".

Regarding BG mentats, i remember that for some reason, there was a kind of silent prohibition to became a mentat among the BG, 'cause i remember that when the two BG went to LetoII in order to try to take out him with spice essence, LetoII was thinking about one of them to be a "secret" mentat. I don't remember exactly the situation, but i remember Leto impression too gave me the idea of "something that would have not to be". Pheraps i'm wrong pheraps not :)

It's for this reason, that BG social status it's not democracy but "surveilled oligarchy".

Bg are ruled by a oligarchical form of government, but surveilled by a "council" that has power in electing or make falling down the oligarchy (remember the doubts and the votation regarding Odrade). The peak is formed by persons like Odrade or Taraza, followed by persons (we can call it triumvirate) like Bellonda and the other 2 i don't remember :) All decisions are taken by this small numbers of persons and then executed by devoted specialized sectors (missionaria protectiva, BG spies, novice teachers etc...). Regarding the rest of the universe i agree with MrFibble, here and there there is anarchy, but mostly there spheres of influence.