The Duncan gholas

[MrFlibble]

SPOILER WARNING!

I'd like to discuss certain points about Duncan Idaho, the character who's present in all Dune novels, so if you haven't read at least one of them, read this at your own risk.

[hide]What do we know about Duncans' lifelines? The original was killed on Dune defending Paul and Jessica ("Dune"). His fist ghola, Hayt, was trained by Tleilaxu to be a Mentat and Zensunni philosopher, and later, upon recovering his original personality, Duncan-Hayt preserved these new mental qualities. Soon after marriage with Alia, Duncan committed suicide, thus helping to defend the Paul's twin children.

The next generation of Duncan gholas used by Lord Leto II were grown by Tleilaxu from the original Duncan cells, as it seems. Only the Duncan in Chapterhaouse has the unique ability to remember all his previous ghola lives along with his original life. Naturally, Chapterhouse Duncan is a Mentat, as inheriting this training from Hayt, while the "Leto series" Duncans seem not to be Mentats, at least it's never mentioned that they are, as they have not got Hayt's memories. Or do they?[/hide]

The Duncan in GEOD remembers his original death at least twice:

I died defending Paul and his mother in a cave-sietch beneath the sands of Dune (p. 45)

"I remember my death," Idaho said. "Harkonnen blades, lots of them trying to get at you and Jessica" (p. 89)

However, on page 46 it is said:

Idaho remembered a strange child - twins, really: Leto and Ghanima, Paul's children, the children of Chani, who had died delivering them.

These are obviously Hayt's memories, as the original Duncan's death happened even before Chani gave birth to the first Paul's son who was killed by Harkonnens. Does this mean all Duncans, or at least this one, did have the memories of Duncan-Hayt? ???

A passage from Chaperhouse:

"I went to Wallach IX at the Tyrant's command," he said. "Oh, yes! I often thought of him as a Tyrant. My orders were to suppress the Mentat school you thought you had hidden there."

<..>

"Consider," he said. "I, a Mentat, forced to suppress a school that trained people the way I was trained." (p. 230)

This suggests Duncan had always been a Mentat, and always had the Duncan-Hayt personality, although he remembered his original death. Either he was a ghola of a ghola, or Tleilaxu messed with his cells and psyche.

What do you think?

[Dante]

Further details on some of the Duncans can be found in the Dune encyclopaedia. He has been a mentat, a swordmaster, a Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach, a woman, a homosexual, Bene Gesserit trained, mad, a musician, addicted to melange, a historian... the list goes on.

[3ngel]

@Dante

Are these informations of Dune Encyclopedia taken from F.H. notes?

In the 6 books there are no traces of such facts about Duncan (Kwisact haderach, homosexual, woman i.e).

In the books its said Tleilaxu had done a KH, but it's not mentioned it was a Duncan Ghola.

[Andrew]

@Dante

Are these informations of Dune Encyclopedia taken from F.H. notes?

No. That information was made up by McNelly. But the Dune encyclopedia is a pretty good book about the possibilities of the Dune universe.

[MrFlibble]

OK, I'm putting more specific questions:

If Duncan in GEOD is created from the original cells, why does he have Hayt's memories?

And if he's created from Hayt's cells, or a mix of original and Hayt's cells, why does he remember his original death and doesn't remember Hayt's death (suicide, besically, when he cut his veins with shigawire in COD)?

[Dante]

He referenced the page, didn't he? My edition has the same line ("Idaho remembered a strange child - twins, really: Leto and Ghanima, Paul's children, the children of Chani, who had died delivering them.") on page 47. This occured after the first Duncan's death, which does indeed suggest that the ghola had Hayt's memories. Either that or it is a flaw.

And if he's created from Hayt's cells, or a mix of original and Hayt's cells, why does he remember his original death and doesn't remember Hayt's death (suicide, besically, when he cut his veins with shigawire in COD)?

It is never mentioned that he doesn't remember Haayt's death, is it? And if you mean when he cut his wrists on Salusa Secundus, then he was patched up after that and survived. Hayt died by goading Stilgar into killing him.

[3ngel]

It's obviously a flaw, because if that particular Duncan had Hayt cells he would be a mentat too.

Not necessarly, Tleilaxu have the possibility to mantain certain characteristic and discard others.

So they would have had the possibily to mix Hiat without the mentat characteristic.

No. That information was made up by McNelly

I see. But even if they can be interesting by themselves, in the end they have no value, as same as BH shits :)

[Vanguard3000]

(spoilers from just about all the original novels)

I haven't read the books for a while, so my knowledge might be a bit rusty, but my understanding was that the early (i.e. the first Dune trilogy) Tleilaxu methods for creating gholas was largely repair work.  They would take a corpse, and use their tanks to knit the flesh and tissues (stem cells, anyone?), to make them physically 'alive' despite a loss of conscious memory and knowledge due to prolonged brain-death (and in this case, a massive head wound).  They would then reeducate and condition the ghola as they or their client saw fit.  Hayt was able to regain his memory from 'genetic memory', a Jungian concept that Frank was big on (it's also the basis for the Bene gesserit Other Memory), or perhapse simply from the recesses of his subconscious.

Later, during the GEoD era, the Tlailaxu methods became more advanced, until soon only a single strand of DNA was necessary, amking the gholas more like clones than repaired cadavers (I still think 'ghola' is a play on the word 'ghoul').  The Duncans that served Leto II could have been grown from Hayt DNA or the DNA of one of Leto II's other Duncans, instead of that of 'Duncan-prime'.

The Duncan in Heretics/Chapterhouse was perhaps the clone of the clone of the clone...  ... of the clone of Hayt.  So when Murbella... erm... released Duncan's memories, he acquired the memories of all previous Duncans.

[3ngel]

Mmm i dont remember if it's said in the first book that tleilax, make a ghola from a cadaver, but the sure thing is that ALL the duncan are from the original Duncan cells.

This thing is said so much time in all six books. That means that stacked on the original duncan cells, tleilax mix all sort of cells from the other gholas or what they want, until in the last duncan, he has, starting from the original duncan, all the modifications Tleilaxu has ever made to a Duncan.

[MrFlibble]

Um, have you read all of COD? Apparently not.

I read COD about a year ago, and in a rather poor-quality translation, so I've forgotten. I guess I ought to by the English book.

Never the less, if Duncan had Hayt's memories, wouldn't it be natural to remember Hayt's death first, as it was, um, more recent? Or do all gholas have the memory af original death dominating, as their original personality is?

[Mahdi]

Duncan only remembered what happened in his first life.  It's stated over and over and over again, which is why the Heretic/chapterhouse Duncan is so important.

All the times he remembers "Muad'Dib", the twins, etc. are simply continuity errors on Frank and the editors part.  They happen.

Just like Muad'dib changing from a constellation to shadows on the moon.

[Dante]

That isn't inconsistancy, it's explicable.

[Dante]

Easy. Face dancers are human. Distorted, but human. Most of their abilities come from conditioning and specialist surgery. Genetic manipulation does the rest. All you need to do is make a ghola of the face dancer, and then change the modifications to the phenotype used by the masters.

The same technique will have been used to make the woman Duncan.

[Tako]

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

[MrFlibble]

Scytale's just a tleilaxian name, I think. I don't remember that there were some special Face Dancer names that could not be used by other Tleilaxu, and vice versa.

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

There are multiple mentions in GEOD that the Duncan was not altered by the Tleilaxu in any way. Leto would definitely detected if there were, and it is suggested some of his Fish Speakers (like Nayla) were trained to detect alterations in Duncans too .

[MrFlibble]

Scytale's just a Tleilaxian name, I think. I don't remember that there were some special Face Dancer names that could not be used by other Tleilaxu, and vice versa.

the tleilaxu made the duncans out of the original dna of the first duncan (says so in GEOD sorry can't ive you a page.. yet), but the tleilaxu might have tried to tamper with them as to using other dna.

remember evrybody was trying to overthrow or kill Leto at that time, they al used there own technieks so the tleilaxu used the flesh-vats

There are multiple mentions in GEOD that the Duncan was not altered by the Tleilaxu in any way. Leto would definitely detect any changes, and it is suggested some of his Fish Speakers (like Nayla) were trained to detect alterations in Duncans too.

[MrFlibble]

Could you please give the exact quotes that state it?

[Dante]

Not they are not human. As Herbert describes, they 're closer to a colony organism. They can't reproduce.

Even if you are right and it is possible, it's clear that this wasn't Frank Herbert's intention (have a master made out of a face dancer). He implies that Scytale was a Master at the time of Muaddib. If

[Dante]

I 'll quote the whole paragraph where Scytale is mentioned in Heretics:

It's on page 60 of my edition. From Dune, Dune Messiah and COD we know this is the only Scytale to have spoken to Muad'dib. There may be further proof in Chapterhouse where Scytale is a central character.

There you are then. He is a face dancer in Messiah, or he would have been unable to imitate Otheym's daughter, or move with such speed. He is a master by Heretics and Chapterhouse, as he was part of the Eight and a close friend of Tylwyth Waff. The master has the memories of the face dancer, and so must be a ghola, whose biochemistry has been altered by Tleilaxu intervention.

Regarding whether face dancers are human or not, one would expect that they are anyway, as the Tleilaxu aren't mentioned as ever creating entirely new organisms until chairdogs come along. Sligs and axlotyl tanks, as well as gholas and clones, are just adaptations of what is already there. The Encyclopaedia has it that face dancers are human males bred for light build and certain behavioural patterns. They are heavily altered in surgery, and in the addition of various enzymes and compounds to the embryo. They are thus human, but sterile.

Huh?

"Reread Heretics and Chapterhouse and you will understand."

Patronisation. Don't do it, I react very badly.

It is in the book and it's clearly said that they 're closer to a colony organism that humans. I can search for a quote if you still won't believe me.

You do that. And make sure that it isn't just regarding behaviour, but in actual biological structure.

Indeed. But if this was the case, wouldn't it make more sense if Frank Herbert mentioned it or even described the process? By the way, the Dune Encyclopaedia wasn't written by Frank Herbert so I wouldn't trust it much more than the prequels.

Unlike the prequels, the Encyclopaedia was authorised and approved by Frank Herbert. And there are many things in Dune that the reader is left to figure out without the author explicitly mentioning them. Exactly what the Scattering was, for example.

[Mahdi]

Tleilaxu are human.  Genetically altered humans, but humans nonetheless.  Like navigators.  There is no other known intellegent species in the duniverse.  Just humans.

Face dancers are sterile, masters are not.  They breed through the use of the Axlotl tanks which, as revealed in Heretics, are tleilaxu woman, not tanks.  Again, they've been genetically modified.

The Scytale in he last two books is the same Scytale as in Messiah.  The Tleilaxu hierarchy and religions changed drastically between Messiah and  Heretics.  It wasn't until Leto's reign that Face Dancers started being designed as, essentially, pets.  Before that some were highly intellegent, capable , independant beings that could rise high in the Tleilaxu world, as evidenced by Scytale himself, who outsmarted the Bene Gesserit and the Guild.

[gunner154]

No wonder every Dune book leaves me baffled about many things. I never understood the Golden Path until I read about it here. I see the link though.

I do remember reading somewhere that face dancers are mere colony organism too, though they might still be humans. Humans for colony organisms?

[3ngel]

Unlike the prequels, the Encyclopaedia was authorised and approved by Frank Herbert.

Really the Encyclopaedia was authorized by FH? Then i think i'll take a look a it :D

[MrFlibble]

Their Face Dancers are mules, closer to a colony organism than to a human (GEOD, p. 101)

There's nothing said about the FD's being slaves deprived of will and personality in GEOD though. The control by a whistling language is only mentioned in Heretics and Chapterhouse.

[Dante]

Really the Encyclopaedia was authorized by FH? Then i think i'll take a look a it :D

"...I must confess that I found it fascinating to re-enter here some of the sources on which the Chronicles are built. As the first "Dune Fan," I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold."

Frank Herbert, in the introduction to the encyclopaedia. As far as we know, the only thing that he disapproved of was the theory that Gaius Helen Mohiam was Jessica's mother. And by gosh, that ended up in the prequels! Well I never.

[3ngel]

On right, thank you very much for the explanation.

The important thing is to be sure not to read a bunch of shit, like the hassole's ones.

Now i can read the eacyclopedia at ease.

Concerning Gaius Helen, well, some absurd thing can be passed if the others are on right :)