Super Heavy Tanks and other prototype WW2 weapons.

[Dunenewt]

Well Germany would have been a threat to USA in the long run too.  But Germany offered us peace.

[exatreide]

First the Nazis now the Soviets. I like the way you keep your argument against me the same all the way through *rolls eyes*.

No, our decolonisation was nothing to do with that.

....http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/atlantic.htm

"Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them"

Ahem, You were saying?

What do you want? A medal?

[Dunenewt]

German Service rejects peace offers

Shortly before the outbreak of war, Hitler offered a peace deal to Britain. He got his response even before the British Government had considered it. Maurice Latey, working on the German Service, poured scorn on the offer. The next morning Latey read newspaper headlines announcing:

[exatreide]

The fact that Hitler was an idiot and started bombing cities does not mean that the Americans helped the British win the Battle of Britain, does it?

Where do you think the materials from America were going?

Though you may have me on that peace thing, will have to do some checking.

You just ignored 9/10's of everything else I said, so i'm assuming I'm right, on those counts.

[Jack Leaf]

"For the last Time. NORWAY WAS OCCUPIED BY GERMANY, and the reason Finland managed to bloody the soviets nose so well in the 30's was because the soviets send several divisons from southern Russia, who had no experience of winter fighting against a heavily fortified expectent enemy, one who was lead and equiped by the Germans."

200 000 Russian men dead or mortally wounded.

People always overestimate the help of the Germans (they weren't even on our side during Winter War, they tried to restrict Italy from sending us guns), and people also tend to forget that the war in Finland was not fought entirely during winter. We manufactured our rifles and SMGs ourselves, Germany gave us some anti-tank weaponry (panzerfausts) but our military lead was too old fashioned to know how to use them in an effective way. Near the end of the war we bought some 5-7 StuG IIIs from Germany and just before the war ended we got tanks, airplanes and more artillery for free. All right, once reason we survived was because Soviets concentrated more on the German front, but then again, were those troops on the German front more experienced?

Yes, in the beginning of Winter War most of the Soviet troops were from southern countries such as Ukraine, but the force was massive compared to the Finnish resistance. In the beginning of the war, we had about 295 000 men, but not all could be thrown to the fighting. Besides, we had weapons for only 250 000 men. There weren't even enough clothes for everybody, not to mention helmets. The soviet force was about 500 000 men strong supported by tanks.

Sorry, but when someone mentions winter or the Continuation war, I love to rant.

[lowzeewee]

Sorry, but when someone mentions winter or the Continuation war, I love to rant.

Pardon me but what were the winter or continuation wars?

[exatreide]

People always forget that the Fins were the only people to use Winter against the Russians. :) Good job.

[Anathema]

Oh, Just like How Russian troops left Poland,Yugoslavia,Romanina,Bulgaria after The Germans left right?

Yugoslavia?! Have you even ever heard of marshall Tito? Yugoslavia was freed from the axis by guerillia warfare, with only minor help from the allies. Tito was a communist, but after WWII when he became leader of Yugoslavia he never bent to the will of Moscow.

America did sell weapons and supplies to Brittain even before they entered the war themselves, yes. And GB may not have lasted had the US not sold them those. Well what does that mean anyway? The American colonists couldn't have won their independence if the French didn't sell them tons of weapons and ammo (and they were paid by Dutch lend money, I might add), it doesn't mean that it wasn't their struggle. Not a single drop of American blood was spilled during the battle of Brittain.

On topic: the Germans were also the first to create a heavy weight bomber capable of traversing the Atlantic Ocean, the Ju-390

[Dunenewt]

Cheers Anathema, that's the Junkers that I was looking for earlier.

[GhostHunter]

Not a single drop of American blood was spilled during the battle of Brittain.

"The first American to give his life in the Battle of Britain was Pilot Officer William M.L. Fiske of No. 601 Squadron. Fiske was a graduate of Cambridge University and a leading personality in the American bob sleigh teams that won the Olympic championships in 1928 and 1932. he died in hospital on 17 August 1940 after bringing back his damaged Hurricane to Tangmere."  ::)

http://www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/BofBamericanpilots.shtml

[Dunenewt]

Weren't they called the RAF Eagles? The American volunteers that is?  The guy on the film Pearl Harbour was one.

[GhostHunter]

Weren't they called the RAF Eagles? The American volunteers that is?  The guy on the film Pearl Harbour was one.

Yeah. That wasn't really the point of that post though...

[Dunenewt]

I never denied there weren't any Americans.  There were also American volunteers in China, called the Tigers I believe.

[GhostHunter]

I never denied there weren't any Americans.  There were also American volunteers in China, called the Tigers I believe.

That's why I quoted Anathema...

[Anathema]

All right, so my statement was to absolute. But those few foreigners who served in the RAF can hardly be called essential to the battle of Brittain.

Secondly I'd like to say that Pearl Harbour sucked thoroughly and is a perversion of history, and should therefore never be mentioned in a serious discussion.

[Dunenewt]

Here's a link:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/eagle1.htm

Although to be fair, they died in the name of Britain.

[Caid Ivik]

If we are to talk about american help in the war, I would rather mention help of their Navy and primarily, the invasion, which helped at least half of Europe to not be overrun by Russians only. By the landing, Americans had the hardest sector of beach.

Also, let's return to the topic. Thanks for the Ju 390, altough such a big plane would only hardly cross american fighters in my opinion  ;D  They were unable to bomb factories at Ural as well. Perhaps they did not wish to cross the mighty MiG-3...

[VigilVirus]

Alright, this whole shit talk about russians having no strategy other than human sacrifice in WWII is pissing me off. You should learn something about WWII before you make that claim. The fact is, russians were overwhelmed by german forces and as you might know, the german military attacking Russia was still larger than the russian military despite the fact that it was divided. That is because only 1/4 of the german military was NOT fighting in the Soviet Union. The rest were. It's estimated that the Russia front was at the start of the war:

150 Germans vs. 50 - 75 USSR division (officially about 140 divisions, 2,000,000 men).

Given that USSR was able to mobilize its men fairly quickly this time around.

It was the superior tactics of russian generals at battles such as Stalingrad and the stubborness of Hitler that led to the fact that USSR was triumphant. Also, you probably know that Russian tanks were very much superior to the majority of german ones.

This website provides some really good counts: http://home.earthlink.net/~akarabal/WW2/WW2.htm

[Jack Leaf]

Panzer IV was very vulnarble against Soviet tanks, yes, but Tiger (both King and normal) and Panther were quite effective. Of course, Panzer 4s were used until the end of the war, but the Germans were much more experienced in tank warfare.

[Anathema]

Russians only had an advantage in tank technology till the point the Germans started pooping out Panther tanks. Panthers were better protected and their 75mm had a better range and penetration then the Russian 76mm and 85mm.

(King) Tigers and IS2 were on par, mostly, as both had their flaws. (I do remember a case when a single King Tiger crew managed to destroy 11 IS2 tanks, but those are exceptional cases)

Germany deployed experienced troops in the beginning of operation Barbarossa, whilst the Russians were ill trained. Later though as the more seasoned troops were thinned out and the Russians started picking up their slack, things were more even- though casualty rates were almost always in Germany's favour. Stalingrad for example: appr. 500.000 German dead versus 1.000.000 Russians (troops that is)

As a side note, Zhukov was no stranger to tank warfare or blitzkrieg. In 1939 already he crushed an army of Japanese invaders with innovative strategies. Still the invention of blitzkrieg should be credited to the Germans wich already had their practice grounds in the Spanish civil war.

[Barbarossa]

On the russian Question, You also have to remeber that Stalin had severly purged the upper ranks of the Red Army before the war. In effect, not only were they being sent to battle under-equipped... They were also without experienced leaders.

"Most public attention was focused on the Quick Facts about: purge

An act of removing by cleansing; ridding of sediment or other undesired elementspurge of the leadership of the Communist Party itself, as well as of government bureaucrats and leaders of the armed forces"

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/G/Gr/Great_Purge.htm

[lowzeewee]

Can the moderators/administrators please split this thread? All the actual discussion on 'Super Heavy Tanks and other prototype WW2 weapons' stay and the discussion on the rest of the off-topic stuff like the Russian Front and Stalin's Purges get put into another thread in the PRP board?

[VigilVirus]

On the russian Question, You also have to remeber that Stalin had severly purged the upper ranks of the Red Army before the war. In effect, not only were they being sent to battle under-equipped... They were also without experienced leaders.

"Most public attention was focused on the Quick Facts about: purge

An act of removing by cleansing; ridding of sediment or other undesired elementspurge of the leadership of the Communist Party itself, as well as of government bureaucrats and leaders of the armed forces"

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/G/Gr/Great_Purge.htm

This was already addressed - many experienced leaders, such as Zhukov escaped the purges.

[Caid Ivik]

Panzer IV was very vulnarble against Soviet tanks, yes, but Tiger (both King and normal) and Panther were quite effective. Of course, Panzer 4s were used until the end of the war, but the Germans were much more experienced in tank warfare.

It is known that when Tigers had been used on the front for first time, whole platoon of them was lost...

[Jack Leaf]

They weren't at their best in swamp enviroments.