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[TMA_1]

I think that Paul was more of a mistake than anything. He was supposed to be the Kwizats Hederach, but because Jessica loved Leto so much, she disobeyed and inveriably tweaked the bloodline. Paul was something different. So when Paul had Leto in his changed state, with a fremen woman who was highly sensitive mentally, it miraculously occured that Leto had gifts which nobody could imagine. Once Leto took the changed water of life, he spawned into something a little greater than Paul. He knew though that in order to follow the Golden Path he would need to keep close control over humanity for an extended period of time, babying them and restricting them. In order to attain a level where one could live potentially for over ten thousand years, Leto did something that only Paul knew of, and that was taking on the sand trout synergistically becoming man and worm, the Divided God. The giver and the taker, the male and female, the man and worm, God and Man.

[piterdevries]

ok so feyd and margot have a child... where can i find it in dune?or in which book can i read about it?

[Dante]

'It' being the child? Nowhere, it is never mentioned again. Some theorise that the Harkonnen bloodline lives on through this union, but what is more likely is that it becomes just another Bene Gesserit gene pattern, monitored throughout the ages.

Unless you mean 'it' being the union itself, in which case it is breifly aluded to in Dune. A specific page reference may come later, if I can find my copy.

[Egeides]

The prescient ability is somehow different becuase of the gender of its wielder. This is why no female can be a Kwisatz Haderach, and even if Ghanima and Alia possessed the powers akin to those of Paul and Leto, they couldn't evade the oracular vision.

What do you mean there by "they couldn't evade the oracular vision"? How come, what's going on with that?

I always thought that my idea of how come Herbert's Kwisatz is necessarily a male to be uncomplete, that I'd need to think a bit about it. The genders in Herbert's novels are quite unusual and central.

[Crysknife]

The definition of KH is a male BG.  While some females had prescient abilities(Alia, Odrade), males were far more powerfull in that regard.  In fact, Alia became lost in her attempt to match Paul's vision.

It is never really explained why males are gifted.

[Egeides]

But the question is really why are only woman Bene Gesserit (easy one: intuition) and thereafter why only male end up being Bene Gesserit (intuitive) AND what it takes for Kwisatz.

I suspect something along the lines of a male version of "woman = intuition = BG". But how come woman get this mixed/blurry vision, not getting this rather male element while a male can get the female element (even if only one in 10 000 years).

The other aspect I see here is that Herbert portrays women as generally better (in BG terms at least), but only a male  can get the ultimate version. Leto and Paul are considered

[MrFlibble]

It is mentioned somewhere in Chapterhouse that females in general are less efficient as Mentats. If I'm not mistaken, this is because they're much more prone to emotions than men.

If we take into account that in some of the earlier books (Dune or Dune Messiah) the Kwisatz Haderach is defined as "the ultimate Mentat", the abovementioned fact might help understanding why no females could achieve such a degree of prescience as Paul and Leto did.

[Egeides]

But it does not explain why a few men can acquire the BG intuition, while no woman can acquire mentat capacity. Why should the Kwisatz, with its perfect genetics, be a male... when he is planned by an exclusive female-only group keeping women as their norm?

Female-only BG, male-only Kwisatz... are those old conservative (historical) discriminations applied strangely into the future?

[Egeides]

For everyone's poundering, I browsed a new forum with some nice discussions and the topic was addressed (http://boardserver.superstats.com/read.html?collapse=1&uid=2699178&u=MRAnderson&id=402&thread=393&f=1&u=MRAnderson):

I've always thought that they could look there...but they would go insane, become possessed, or die. That is, if they could overcome their fear. The women being the "givers" can not go to the place of the "taker" without losing themselves.

It keeps this historic habit of saying that "woman are more easily possessed/witches". It seems like a way to say that women do not aim at controlling (taking).

Any views about all this taker/giver thing?

[piterdevries]

can sum1 explain to me the golden path?  i really dont get it...

[MrFlibble]

After the enforced tranquility of Leto's Peace, the humankind burst through cataclisms like the Famine into the Scattering, thus ensuring its endless and limitless expansion into the universe, and ultimately, its survival.

[gunner154]

For everyone's poundering, I browsed a new forum with some nice discussions and the topic was addressed (http://boardserver.superstats.com/read.html?collapse=1&uid=2699178&u=MRAnderson&id=402&thread=393&f=1&u=MRAnderson):

It keeps this historic habit of saying that "woman are more easily possessed/witches". It seems like a way to say that women do not aim at controlling (taking).

Any views about all this taker/giver thing?

Logically, that means "But it does not explain why a few men can acquire the BG intuition, while no woman can acquire mentat capacity" no longer holds, because that means men should be better at either than women, be it being Bene Gesserit or being a Mentat. We cannot group all these things together as a whole and analyse them. Perhaps there are certain things unique to men that allow them to be KHs and certain things unique to women that allow them to be Bene Gesserits.

And it's "Cataclysm", not cataclism :)

[Dante]

It's more complicated than that. There have been female mentats (Bellonda) and male Bene Gesserit (Farad'n), though granted the latter was on a technicality and none would survive the spice agony. Had I read the books more recently I'd be able to give a greater insight, but I'm afraid I've all but forgotten the intricacies of the latter books. Waah.

Note to self: Reread Heretics and Chapterhouse.

[gunner154]

That's the thing about Dune: The constant need to re-read and re-re-read, somehow.

Good catch on Bellonda being a Mentat and Farad'n being Bene Gesserit. Forgotten those exceptions somehow :P

[MrFlibble]

Bellonda is not an exception. AFAIK, there are no restrictions to Mentat's gender, but Idaho remarks to himself somewhere in Chapterhouse (I'm looking through right now, if I come with the quote, I'll post it) that female Mentats weren't as efficient as male ones.

[3ngel]

Regarding BG mentats, i remember that for some reason, there was a kind of silent prohibition to became a mentat among the BG, 'cause i remember that when the two BG went to LetoII in order to try to take out him with spice essence, LetoII was thinking about one of them to be a "secret" mentat. I don't remember exactly the situation, but i remember Leto impression too gave me the idea of "something that would have not to be". Pheraps i'm wrong pheraps not :)

[Purge]

Yeah, but I don't think that was an issue of BG not being allowed to be mentats, it was mentats as a whole of any kind that were illegal or whatever.  I believe Leto II crushed the mentat school at some point.

[Dante]

Yes, Leto prohibited mentats. Also, now that I'm rereading Heretics, I can say that during that era, all of the Bene Gesserit sisters that worked in Archives were mentats. Led by Bellonda. Female mentats are not a rarity, I think, though the claim that they were less efficient than males is ringing a bell.

[MrFlibble]

Here's the quote I was talking about:

As he accumulated observations of Bellonda, he came to appreciate a viewpoint of those great Mentat Masters who have taught him. "Reverend Mothers do not make the best Mentats."

No Bene Gesserit appeared capable of completely removing herself from that binding absolute she achieved in the Spice Agony: loyalty to the Sisterhood.

His teachers had warned against absolutes. They created a serious flaw in a Mentat. (p. 73)

I think it will clarify that bit about Mentats, women and BG's. No restrictions to female Mentats thus, and no "sexism" in the overall Mentat performance evaluation.

[lord vernius of ix]

???what is a chair dog? i was wondering cause i just started reading heritics, and the thought of a dog sitting still long enough to sit on, confuses the hell outta me lol

[piterdevries]

why were the atreides moved to arrakis?

[3ngel]

@lord vernius of ix

A "chair dog" is a kind of "living chair" that accomodates itself on the forms of the "sitter". Is a Tleilaxu product, obtained through genetic manipulation of... well something :)

@GriMFandagO

'Cause the emperor Shaddam IV "forced" them to do so, proposing them to replace the Arkonnen on the planet. The reason at the base of this fact is part of an hidden emperor's plot to get rid of Atreides.

[lord vernius of ix]

man sitting inside of a living thing just sounds wierd... good way to assasinate someone though(rabid dog chair) lol

[TMA_1]

yeah, the tleilaxu are a strange people! So genetically twisted that they would probably be put into their own sub-racial class. I forgot all about chairdogs. I always had a funny image in my mind picturing them.

[Egeides]

I forgot all about chairdogs. I always had a funny image in my mind picturing them.

That's good: I never got an image. I gave up when seeing we just didn't have information about it.

It's a chair. From a dog.