why does everyone hate the emperor?

[piterdevries]

why does everyone in dune hate the emperor????

[styx]

Because he is a very bad man.

It all comes down to the spice wars where he attacked quite a few systems for stock piling spice. Equally there are all the Laansart that know about his substitute spice and the killing of two guild highliners and also attepting to destroy all of Dune.

[TMA_1]

I loved the character. I love in the books in those little snippets before each chapter, there is a little conversation between the emperor and irulan.

Basically in it they walk along all the paintings of some of the royal cousins and relations, and they come across paul. The emperor basically says that it made him so sad that all the thigns that happened had to happen. That if things would have been different he would have been proud to have him as his son in law.

Of course that did happen to him, but not in the way he wanted it.

THe emperor is a very complex character, and in the books is owed a lot of respect in my eyes. The prequels completely ravaged his character, and that pisses me off because he was so interesting.

[Mahdi]

I loved the character. I love in the books in those little snippets before each chapter, there is a little conversation between the emperor and irulan.

Basically in it they walk along all the paintings of some of the royal cousins and relations, and they come across paul. The emperor basically says that it made him so sad that all the thigns that happened had to happen. That if things would have been different he would have been proud to have him as his son in law.

Of course that did happen to him, but not in the way he wanted it.

THe emperor is a very complex character, and in the books is owed a lot of respect in my eyes. The prequels completely ravaged his character, and that pisses me off because he was so interesting.

Not as bad as they ruined Fenrings.

[Tako]

well I think the emperor made some big mistakes in his beginning of his regime, fenring too.

They both regret that they made those choises and now feel the result of them.

they are not bad people, history cought up with them and that is it.

[Mahdi]

You don't just change from a mysoginistic, psychotic, sociopathic murdering bastard to an honourable warrior because you realise "You were wrong".  Most of them do know they are wrong.  They jsut keep doing it anyway.

[Tako]

You don't just change from a mysoginistic, psychotic, sociopathic murdering bastard to an honourable warrior because you realise "You were wrong". Most of them do know they are wrong. They jsut keep doing it anyway.

I did not say he was a mysoginistic, psychotic, sociopathic murdering bastard ( well maybe fenring is a bit,

I said he was influenced by people and wanted to rule alone unquestioned rule, so he made some bad choises, later on when he grew in his role as an emperor (and learned how to rule) he realised he made bad choises.

plus he may not have really liked Duke Letot but he admired him because he was one of the few that had beaten him in his own game

[SpiceGuid]

why does everyone in dune hate the emperor?

do you like backstabbing?

[Davidu]

Why? He was the head of the state. Ussually these people are traditionaly hated.  ;D

And he had no honor. He ruled according with state reasoning. He WAS the state. He WAS the empire. Therefore he did all according with the state's logic.

[Tako]

a powerfull man always is always envied so shaddam said himself

muad'dib alsoi found this when he was emperor, but being a religieus figure also he did not suffer as much as shaddam

[Mahdi]

I was talking about Fenring, hence my use of his name.

[Tako]

right I knew that ;)

stand corrected

still, some of it still aplies

[Mahdi]

right I knew that ;)

stand corrected

still, some of it still aplies

No it doesn't.  In the original novel Fenring was a dangerous, yet honourable man.  Int he prequels he's a psychotic, mysoginist, sadist.

[TMA_1]

mahdi, we useually part ways on parts of the Dune series, but here I have to agree.

they ravaged fenring was a badass. That is all that needs to be said about that.lol

nah, what I mean is his interplay with wife margot, and his talks with the baron harkonnen. My goodness what a brilliant man.

In a way, he is so much like paul. This is obvious because he was originally one of the links to the KH, and I put out a theory a while back that he and paul may be related because the genetic tinkering of the bene gesserit. I might revamp the idea with more insights I found with the links between the two.

One of the most amazing parts of Dune is when fenring backs down from fighting paul. I htink you would agree with me mahdi in the fact that fenring would have torn paul apart. He didnt though because he saw a fellow kindred spirit, somebody that reminded him more of himself than anybody else had before.

But they had to turn him into a sniveling weirdo in the prequels, instead of an insightful, albiet eccentric genius.

[Caid Ivik]

He should be a person living his philosophy. Perhaps it was weird, but still it was his choice. Same as Muad'Dib and Leto were trying to form the universe on their image, so did he. I would say Jodorowski made a good choice with Dali to play him in his movie  ;D

[Tako]

One of the most amazing parts of Dune is when fenring backs down from fighting paul. I htink you would agree with me mahdi in the fact that fenring would have torn paul apart. He didnt though because he saw a fellow kindred spirit, somebody that reminded him more of himself than anybody else had before.

and that is all we come to know of fenring (apart from his dealing with the baron Harkonnen

we don't know shit about fenring and they filled it in for us, it is a asumption that he is not evil, but how do we know that for a fact?

Fenring we get to know a tiny bit only in those two episodes in the first book, for the rest we don't know anything, matbe he miled down a bit in the upcoming years after the prequels.

W e don't know, you are placing an asumption/theorie here not a fact

[Dante]

Think of it like this...

Fenring's character is a cube, ok? Just imagine that for a second. And in the original book, we saw a corner of the cube. We could see that it was pointy. Thus we observed part of Fenring's character, but certainly not all of it.

Now in the prequels, we are shown a sphere and told that it is Fenring's character. Where's the corner? Where's the pointy bit? It's gone, is what it is! It's manifest, it's clear, it's blindingly obvious that this new Fenring is not the original, even though we didn't get to see all of the original character.

[Tako]

or we are seeing an other side of the cube ;), still I see some of the fenring from dune in the fenring from the prequels how he talks and goes whit margot for one is a start

and: I'm not saying I like the Fenring from the prequels just that there is other fenring there he's the same,

we have seen the corner and now see the cube :)

[Mahdi]

Please, you're sayign that Fenring is the same in the prequels as in the originals because he "Talks the same"?  Well, I got news for you, he doesn't.  Int he originals thsoe hoos and humms were and elaborate code3 he create so he could speak to his wife in the middle of a party without anybody being the wiser.

Sociopathy doesn't just mellow out.  It's a personality disorder, not a mental desease.  It is who someone is and it cannot be changed.

[Tako]

Please, you're sayign that Fenring is the same in the prequels as in the originals because he "Talks the same"?

[TMA_1]

how does mahdi know the hums and haas are a code? it says it in the books arutha.

are you just trying to argue for the sake of argument? because you dont really bring up any relavent debate.

In Dune fenring is completely different. He is a man who deserves utmost respect. Fenring is the kind of man who's intelligence goes beyond that of a normal person, and this obviously has to do with him being a failed attempt at a kwizats hederach.

in the prequels, he is a sick pervert with no real eye on the prize. They dont give him any redeeming quality and they make him into a character that is obviously miles away from the sophistication he had in Dune.

[Andrew]

Spoiler for original Dune relating to Fenring.

[hide]Fenring could have killed Paul after Paul had killed Feyd, but he chose not to even with the emperors insistence. If he was like he was in the prequels, he would have killed Paul for some horrible reason.[/hide]

[Tako]

how does mahdi know the hums and haas are a code? it says it in the books arutha.

are you just trying to argue for the sake of argument? because you dont really bring up any relavent debate.

where in the books, I've just re-read the book and did not find that (of course I could have mist it)

I'm not arguing for the sake of...

You all have an idea of fenring based on a very few notes in the first book, you have your own idea of Fenring and I have a different Idea.

In Dune fenring is completely different. He is a man who deserves utmost respect. Fenring is the kind of man who's intelligence goes beyond that of a normal person, and this obviously has to do with him being a failed attempt at a kwizats hederach.

did not read that anywhere too but again could have mist that. Fenring is already conciderd a dangerous man in Dune why is that I ask you, the prequels give a reason as to why.

in the prequels, he is a sick pervert with no real eye on the prize. They dont give him any redeeming quality and they make him into a character that is obviously miles away from the sophistication he had in Dune.

As Shadam Fenring had to grow in his role in ruling the empire ( or assisting the emperor in ruling). In the years after the prequels he might have slowed down a bit on the killing and his wive should have had a good effect on him too. She made him change in  a more human figur, before her He only had shaddam and he made shaddam want him for delecate mission by being the best there is. Tis was the only way he would have some of the glory shaddam got. When he met Margot he had a new intrige in his live, besides Shaddam. He had not  only to rely on him being valueble to Shaddam.

Now: I know I'm speculating on this and I should, I agree with the fact that they should have made him a more respected character but I've read Dune and in my vision of it he is also the Emepror's favorite assasin. I think it is all in the way how you read the books and how you interpet the (few) facts given.

[TMA_1]

you are right that a lot of it is interpritation. But with many things like fenrings hums and haa's area real code, I will get the exact page for ya.

I will also get some quotes from Dune, and from the prequels in how the prequels mess with his character.

It is rather obvious though in his huming and haaing. In the prequels it is shown as almost a tick, something he does because he sounds like a rambling idiot. This wasent meant to be like that htough and they totally missed the boat here. This should show you that Brian and Kevin messed things up.

[Tako]

you are right that a lot of it is interpritation. But with many things like fenrings hums and haa's area real code, I will get the exact page for ya.

thanks that would be helpfull

It is rather obvious though in his huming and haaing. In the prequels it is shown as almost a tick, something he does because he sounds like a rambling idiot. This wasent meant to be like that htough and they totally missed the boat here. This should show you that Brian and Kevin messed things up.

well that is not in debate here (from my point of view)

I know ( and most of you all agree with this) that they messed things up in the prequels. They don't get the feeling right eitherin the prequels but: still I liked reading them and they gave some insight into the "past"

we must remember still that they made the prequels uot of the notes that FH leftthem, so they are not all to blame. It is hard to step in the footprints of a legendary writer