GG Kerry, but you're a f**king wimp

[KALONY]

hey gun, u can say, that the world need the u.s. for Policing and droping bombs, coz never was a bomb falling next to u. ur country has simply no history and culture to understand that.

i dont know much about ur father, but my father woulda never fight me. he loves me, thats a father syndrom. he trust in me, and speak with me if i make bullshit. no1 need a bomb. (and btw, to say that the usa is the world father is realy a big joke...hehe)

KALONY

[Andrew]

All I have to say is here is a possible solution for all you democrats who dislike Bush.

A Modest Proposal

Go down to a modest proposal.

[KALONY]

hey gun, u can say, that the world need the u.s. for Policing and droping bombs, coz never was a bomb falling next to u. ur country has simply no history and culture to understand that.

i dont know much about ur father, but my father woulda never fight me. he loves me, thats a father syndrom. he trust in me, and speak with me if i make bullshit. no1 need a bomb. (and btw, to say that the usa is the world father is realy a good joke...hehe)

KALONY

[GUNWOUNDS]

Missed these to gems from Gunwounds:

Maybe because America hasn't been devastated by War like Europe has, and we do all we can to resolve things through diplomatic means first. We can stomach it, we just prefer the alternatives.

Your contribution was appreciated, but a little, and very late. Britain and France won that war.

[Andrew]

Why did you quote yourself so soon Kalony?

Oh an Gunwounds, I believe this year or last year was the first year that American companies invested more money in other countries, than they did in the USA. Which means that companies are now investing more in other countries. But people are still investing in USA, just not as much as they used to.

And Europe has more history than North America (unless you count native americans, but not as much is known about them than their European counterparts.) Yes NA has a history, but has not been inhabited by europeans for as long.

You forgot about USA with Vietnam and Korea, and several other places.

[KALONY]

hehe, i quote myself by accident sorry for this...doesnt mean anything.

gun, im not talking bout a history wich is happen like yesterday. im talking bout thousands of years. u never get occupied or something else. u occupie others, coz u dont know how it feels like to be the one. thats the point, what i mean, u dont have the knowledge to rule the world. u r like a young teenie, who try to show his parents how to live his life...hehe

KALONY

[GUNWOUNDS]

hehe, i quote myself by accident sorry for this...doesnt mean anything.

gun, im not talking bout a history wich is happen like yesterday. im talking bout thousands of years. u never get occupied or something else. u occupie others, coz u dont know how it feels like to be the one. thats the point, what i mean, u dont have the knowledge to rule the world. u r like a young teenie, who try to show his parents how to live his life...hehe

KALONY

thousands of years?

[GUNWOUNDS]

it is evident you dont understand what we are talking about since you are bringing up totally irrelevant material in an attempt to make a point that doesnt exist.... getting occupied a thousand years ago?  wtf is that shit?  are you just trying to go offtopic or something?

[ordos45]

and nobody has the knowledge of being occupied or enslaved  except for the few jews and blacks who are still living today.

That's not counting untold millions enslaved in certain African and Asian nations today of course...

[GUNWOUNDS]

  is like a young teenie, who try to show his parents how to live his life...hehe

KALONY

And you think the USA is like a kid telling its parents how to live?  Well you must be drunk irresponsible parents for making the kid have to rebuke/save  them twice and then forbid them to build up militarily.

[exatreide]

um gunwounds, America did not win ww1

The war was already almost over when american troops with hershy started to arive, the germans were starving, the austrians were falling apart on the inside, and the turks were getting crushed in palestine, if america had not entered the war, Germany still would have lost...

Germany still would have lost if we didn't join in ww2, American and British bombing raids did little to stop the german war machine, actully production of Weapons went up, untill 1945. Germany would have lost to russia, bailing out europeans? get your facts streight twat, Americans helped, but we did not win the war In Europe at all. We won the pacific war, but the soviets could have taken care of that after the reichstag fell.

And gunwounds you know when we went bombing people in the last century, most of the time we had UN/Nato Suport or atleast Agreeing with us that it is wrong. You see twat, if we want to bomb Poland, and Germany,France,Italy,Denmark, And The UK say no, we cant violate their airspace with armed aircraft, it violates their airspace and could be considerd a act of war,

If we want to bomb Nepal, and India, China,Bangladesh,Afghanistan say no We cant do it, we violate their airspace. Same thing as if the French would want to bomb Mexico, If we said no they couldn't do it! You twat we need the worlds suport, one of the reasons atleast.

In WW1, IT was a legue of nations Affair

In WW2, it was a NATO/UN Affair

In Korea, It was a NATO/UN Affair

In Vietnam, it was NATO/UN Affair

In Desert Storm, it was a NATO/UN AFfair

In Kosovo, It was a Nato/UN Affair

In Afghanistan, it was a NATP/UN affair

In Operation Iraqi Freedom, it was A US AFFAIR

You honestly Think that the US should be the worlds police force? You really are retarded if you think that Europeans are "hemp" smoking hippies then why the frell did we bail them out? not becouse we wanted to, but becouse we had to you twat.

Who Cares if North Korea and Iran get WMD? It really isnt that much to be afraid of, I think Nukes under Stalin were alot more fearfull then nukes under Kim Jong, Yea they might have nukes but their people are starving to death, and their econemy is in the shit hole, sound fammiler? a le collapse of the soviet union. Let them have nukes, lets crush them Economicaly and socially, Worked once, and it didnt cost thousands of lifes and billions to invade the soviet union...

twat.

[Wolf]

Rookie, NATO didn't exist in WW2, and the United Nations was not officially born until after the war in San Francisco in 1946 -- although, the first documented reference to "the United Nations" is made in Dwight D. Eisenhower's Operation Overlord speech. And the First World War would have dragged on for at least another year or two, causing even more casualties, if the United States had not intervened with fresh reinforcements.

Secondly, you don't know the first bit about history, do you? Without a United States to fight Japan (forgot about the other half of the Axis, didn't you?), the Japanese Empire can solidify its Pacific Dominion, and then Assault Russia from the east. Thereby relieving Russian pressure on the Germans, and allowing the Germans to finish building Fortress Europe and subjugate Great Britain. Vietnam was not NATO, because NATO is North Atlantic, dimwit. NATO didn't exist by the time the Korean war was fought and was entirely a UN affair. If anything, Vietnam involved SEATO -- the Southeast Asian Treaty Organization, and was not even a UN action. It was the Western Alliance vs. the Eastern Coalition. SEATO; the little brother of NATO. Desert Storm was 100% UN, NATO didn't have much to do with it, even though NATO nations participated. Kosovo was entirely a NATO affair, on the other hand, and, in fact, NATO never received a UN mandate for their actions in Kosovo. How could the UN participate in a war it never authorized? How about that?

Learn your history before you start justifying your beliefs with it.

*EDIT: Yeah, this is harsh for me. But this election has gotten me really worked up. Please, please, I beg of all of you, try to actually find out what the hell you're talking about before you do.

[ordos45]

*reads all posts*

Name calling, insinuations of complete idiocy, etc.  Say goodbye to the thread, I issued a flame warning.

[Edric O]

Yes, the topic did get a little sidetracked... well, ok, it got sidetracked a lot, but these are stressful times for everyone with an interest in politics. In any case, locking the topic is a little extreme, Ordos. We've left alone far more inflammatory threads in the past. As such, this topic is now unlocked, in the hope that everyone will take note and the flames will die down.

[Edric O]

And now let me be the first to attempt to get back to the original subject. A while ago, Wolfwiz said:

All of you need to get a grip. First of all, hoping that terrorism increases, that Americans are worse off than they ever have been before, and that the United States' government becomes the most hated on Earth just so the political climate is more amiable to your political/economic views is disgusting.

[...]

...his hoping-against-hope prediction that Americans suffer...

Hoping? Who said anything about hoping? Dreading would be a better word. Or stating a fact. Because, if you're talking about my comments, then that's what I was doing: stating something that is, in my opinion, a fact. Terrorism will increase, Americans will be far worse off than before, and the US government will be extremely hated all over the world. I don't want these things to happen (I sure as hell didn't support Bush in the campaign, did I?), but I believe they will happen, and we might as well make the best of this situation. That was my message.

If an astronomer explains that a giant asteroid is heading towards Earth, and somewhere in his analysis mentions that this event is likely to result in a huge increase in funding and public interest for space research, he's not expressing a hope - he's mentioning one possibly good thing about an overall very bad situation. That is what I did. My point was: "Unfortunetaly, bad things will happen, but perhaps a little good might come of it after all".

And if we're going into the hoping-against-hope department, then I HOPE that Bush will stick to his promises of unity and bipartisanship, that he will moderate his policies this term, that he will seek reconciliation with the world, that he will raise back taxes on the rich and that he will finally start showing that "compassionate conservative" side of his by investing at least as much money into saving lives (i.e. healthcare, welfare) as he's already investing into killing people. That is what I would HOPE. But, as Bush would say, make no mistake - that stuff ain't gonna happen.

[jeff2429]

Wasn't Russia only in the war to protect their borders?  I don't think they were in it to help any of the other countries.  The germans who fought the usa forces would fought others or reinfoced fighting Russia probly.  Even if Russia still woulda won they woulda taken all the that land and tooken it for there own use and not back to the legal country.

Sorry that this is off the main topic.

[Dunenewt]

Secondly, you don't know the first bit about history, do you? Without a United States to fight Japan (forgot about the other half of the Axis, didn't you?), the Japanese Empire can solidify its Pacific Dominion, and then Assault Russia from the east. Thereby relieving Russian pressure on the Germans, and allowing the Germans to finish building Fortress Europe and subjugate Great Britain..

Right...someone needs to learn their history. Japan's main interest wasn't Russia and they wouldn't of invaded Russia due to the simple fact it would have been way too much to take on as they already had China, Australia, India and Thailand (Siam) to deal with, not mentioning USA and the rest of the Commonwealth.

Secondly you mention Japan as the other half of the axis. Excuse me...the other half...of the Tripartite Axis. Maybe I'm missing here but wouldn't a Tripartite Axis half three sides? Therefor Japan would be a third of it.

Thirdly, Hitler couldn't subjugate Great Britain. Operation Sea Lion would never have worked, and Hitler's military advisors knew it. Their massive Luftwaffe couldn't beat the mighty gallant (who gets the pun?) few of the RAF.

Before you start critisizing Rookie, look up your facts first.

If a mod thinks this topic is going of course could they possibly split the topic?

[GUNWOUNDS]

locked and unlocked.... we have made forum history !

p.s. - just curious Gob.. what is the moderator hierarchy for dune2k?

[KALONY]

gun, u dont think that thousands of years doesnt matters? so the world sucks coz of people like u, who dont wanna learn from the history. or r u unable to learn, coz u dont have a history?

u shoulda travel much more araund the world....it isnt as small as ur great u.s.....and u will c, there r much more beautifull places, with much more beautifull people, who know why how and what they live for.

ill leave this thread...its going nowhere....C YALL LATER and c u 2 gun....hehe

KALONY

[Andrew]

locked and unlocked.... we have made forum history !

p.s. - just curious Gob.. what is the moderator hierarchy for dune2k?

In my opinion it would look like this:

http://www.dune2k.com/?page=siteinfo-staff

But the order doesn't matter, just the category.

So there is Gob, then Mahdi and whoever else can post news on main website, then super mods, then mods. Quite simple.

[Andrew]

I forget which thread talked about education and voting, but here is some interesting info.

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

2000 election http://www.ginandtacos.com/education.jpg

Ignorance is bliss ::)

[Dante]

History doesn't repeat itself, people repeat each other.

Dealing briefly with earlier issues...

America was not a vital part of World War One. The USA waited for a very long time before finally moving in, prompted by the sinking of the Lusitania.

It was help, yes, but it was too late to play a vital role.

World War Two is slightly different. It's true that the European war could have been won without American support, though it would have been difficult. The war in Africa probably follows the same lines. It's only the war in the Pacific that the Americans really won, and even then it was not a case of "Oh dear, what a terrible state of affairs the world is in, we'd better go out and fix it up for the good of all." It was more "Japan hit Pearl Harbour! Revenge revenge revenge!" Prior to that event, America was repeating its behaviour during the First World War by remaining aloof and isolationist.

These events are important because they should help us put modern disasters (I kid you not) into perspective, so that we can learn from them. Lessons include; America's intervention in the two World Wars was not vital and was motivated in both cases by the deaths of American civilians. After these two conflicts various groups of countries (League of Nations, UN) were formed in order to work together, the job of 'policing the world' should never fall to one country. Also there is the matter of attitude. European countries have been, throughout their history, raided, bombed, invaded, marched through, occupied, renamed, etc. The people of Europe have had centuries of experience of war, death, and more war. America has only existed for two hundred years. People remember that kind of thing, and this is why Europeans are so much more cautious. We've 'been there' for much longer.

On to more recent topics.

Yes, the topic did get a little sidetracked... well, ok, it got sidetracked a lot, but these are stressful times for everyone with an interest in politics. In any case, locking the topic is a little extreme, Ordos. We've left alone far more inflammatory threads in the past. As such, this topic is now unlocked, in the hope that everyone will take note and the flames will die down.

Very stressful. I feel ill, and have done for a while now. Blurg...

*reads wolfwiz's post*

umm who is the "twat" now rookie?  i bet your face is turning red now with embarassment huh?  Dumbass. Stick with what you know best... like dragonball-z trading cards.

*laughs*

This is why I try to get on with Edric, and make no such effort with emprworm and Gunwounds.

And if we're going into the hoping-against-hope department, then I HOPE that Bush will stick to his promises of unity and bipartisanship, that he will moderate his policies this term, that he will seek reconciliation with the world, that he will raise back taxes on the rich and that he will finally start showing that "compassionate conservative" side of his by investing at least as much money into saving lives (i.e. healthcare, welfare) as he's already investing into killing people. That is what I would HOPE.

Don't we all, don't we all...

[Edric O]

I'm starting to agree with CTR that this topic should be split... we seem to have a "who should rule the world" spinoff here.

[exatreide]

Who should rule the world eh?

The World Should! ;)

[Anathema]

Secondly, you don't know the first bit about history, do you? Without a United States to fight Japan (forgot about the other half of the Axis, didn't you?), the Japanese Empire can solidify its Pacific Dominion, and then Assault Russia from the east. Thereby relieving Russian pressure on the Germans, and allowing the Germans to finish building Fortress Europe and subjugate Great Britain.

The Japanese had already fought a war against the Soviet Union from 1938-1939, starting as a routine border skirmish. Later though the Japanese send over 80,000 troops against the Russians. At the battle of Halhin Gol though the Russians totally creamed the Japanese. Also in 1944 the Russian tanks (most notably T34-85 and IS3) were arguably the best of the world, while Japanese tanks couldn't even compete with the flimsy Sherman tanks.

On 8 august the Soviets invaded Manchoekwo (operation August Storm), rapidly capturing grounds using superior troops, equipment and tactics. The advance was stopped when Japan surrendered. Before that they had already captured a large part of Korea as well, what would later become North Korea. If the Japanese had attacked the Russians on land they would have been destroyed.