Gom Jabbar/the pain box test

[salikadali]

What are Gom Jabbar's used for? (in general)

Is it an assassin's tool or some kind of special weapon?

Or is it a religious artifact?

Pain box :It seems to be some kind of test, a subject must control their fear and instincts, and have horrible pain inflicted on them, why? what does it prove? That a human can control their instincts, and thus be more in control of themselves? Did anyone see Fight Club? A similar situation happened with the main characters.

just curious, thought it might make an interesting topic ;)

[quoudam72]

The gomjabbar is that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene gesserit roctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.

Test was as you say... also to test for the animal instincts (primative or lower thinking) within the subject of the test. True a human can control his/her instincts thus being in control of themselves which shows mental strenght. This topic could lead to a sort of meta-physical discussion. Fight Club...I saw that your talking about the when he pours the acid on his hand? Yes?

[Acriku]

The pain box should be used for torture and interrogation. Maybe the Harks could steal it or something.

[Klobbersaurus414]

Yep, its a Bene Gesserit test which is used to see if a person is human. A Bene Gesserit human can ignore the pain by switching nerve signals if the need arises. the gom-jabbar is used to add urgency to the situation by threatening the testee, its probably just coated with water. The gom-jabbar is used by itself as an assasin weapon, but is not used for killing during the test.

[Acriku]

It wasn't covered with water when Alia killed Vladmir with it ;)

[Mahdi]

N

[salikadali]

Ahhh, truth sense, a tool used to detect lying. Greatly feared by those in power in the Dune universe. A tool of the Emperor, and the BeneGeserit, and others who took the water of life (i.e. Paul). I thought it was cool when Paul spotted the face dancer assassin, in the second book, (by his eyes that laughed at everything) although Paul was blind at the time? interesting

Back to the pain box- I hope I'm not getting to metaphisical, but I thought this was a fascinating idea about controling pain and fear, pain from the box- fear of death from the Gom Jabbar. Testing a human's awareness through crisis and observation. Did the Reverend Mother intend to kill Paul? , if so, why didn't she?

Fight Club acid on hand scene- similar scenario and meaning, but I think the philosophy was kinda confusing. I think Herbert's idea was clearer,it made more sense, but the controling pain and fear idea was similar, that is kind of the whole idea behind "fight club" and the Gom Jabbar I guess, if a person is not at the mercy of fear and pain avoidance, then they are free to understand the situation better, and thus, make better decisions. Warriors don't run away all the time when faced with death, thus terror tactics are less effective,(to say the least). thanx for the reply's :)

[Acriku]

The Reverend Mother WOULD HAVE killed Paul if he had taken his hand out, and Lady Jessica knew it. Haven't seen FightClub, tell me more about this acid scene ;)

[quoudam72]

No tell him nothing rent the movie Moidib and watch it. You will appercitate it better.:)

[salikadali]

Moidib, Fight Club is a pretty good, interesting, movie, although not comparable to Dune. Some of the philosophy in fight club is confusing, it tries to mix philosophy and theology at some points,(acid on hand scene), which I think assumes too much about the intentions of God, specifically. God, by definition, is beyond human comprehension on certain levels, and trying to attribute simple human qualities or "ideas" to (the creator of all things) is incorrect, and can lead to false assumptions(it supposes that God hates man,[its kind of confusing] which I think is an incorrect assumption), but the movie as a whole does not neccesarily make this point.

Anyway, without getting too deep into theology(although I felt it was important to say something about that particular scene), Fight Club raises some interesting questions about our nature, like the Gom Jabbar/pain test. In that particular scene(acid on hand)- which is phisically similar to the pain box, the main character gets acid poured on his hand and then has to deal with the pain while thinking about what he wants to do with his life, hence similarity to the Dune pain test,(although his life is not threatened like Paul's is). Personnaly, I like Herbert's treatment of the subject better, its meaning is more clear. The basic lesson, I think, is that pain and fear should not be what controls a person's actions or thoughts, that is a difference( as Fedaykin-Sandwalker pointed out) between being a human(that can control their actions,thus make better decisions, and have greater awareness) and an animal(that is primarily influenced by their environment, such as pain avoidence and fear of the unknown.:) If someone is very powerful, such as Paul, then they can do very good things, or very bad things, like Feyd. Would Feyd have passed the pain test? It is a similar point about the Harkonnens always being reffered to as animals in the books. Sometimes it is painful to do the right thing. I think power and mental fortitude are niether good or bad by themselves, that depends on the individual, hopefully good.

As a side point, I love RTS games, like Emporer BFD, playing either side, its a GAME, and its fun to play. One thimg I like about RTS(I guess its true with any games) is that to even play, you have to risk losing,(and both winning and losing can test your ego), and to play well, you have to control your fear of losing(playing defensively) and think about winning(playing offensively). So you have to learn to accept that you might lose,in order to take the risks neccessary to win, kinda like controlling your fear in the pain box, maybe?

Bi lal Kaifa ! ;)

[salikadali]

oops, sorry Feydakin :)

[quoudam72]

Da nada. Hey since you did a good job explaining it I'm not mad. Matter of fact I'm going to go rent it to watch it again myself or buy the DVD. You've got me thinking about something.

[Digital Guerrilla]

What would be the way to fail this test removing your hand from the box? Does that kill you or the Rev. Mother outright slay the test subject for removing their hand from the box. I watched the Lynch movie and remember the part this test takes place but I want to know what the alterative to succeeding would be for the test. And another thing is the gom jabbar always performed this way or are there other ways to perform a gom jabbar?

[niels]

i understood that the bene gesserit witch kills you with the gom habbar. because if you fail you are an animal like the harkonnen and thus dangerous to human cind. especially if you can look in the future etc.

[Acriku]

Ok first of all, I am an Emperor! Yes! Ok, the test is the subject puts his hand in the box. He keeps it there, as he feels itching, then burning, his flesh feels as though it is being burnt off. He keeps his hand in there until the witch says take it out. If he takes it out before that, she poisins him with her GomJabber, thus killing him. The box wouldn't kill you if you took it out, because then he could never take it out without dying. It was pretty cool.

[quoudam72]

The whole test is in your mind if you are weak minded you can fail but if you have a strong mind you can suceed. I don't think every test is a box I'm thinking that there are different ways the Bene Gesserit adminster the gom jabbar. I think Leto II had a gom jabbar test in Children or Dune and his did not invole the box that his father (Maud'dib) had in his test with Mohiam. That's the reason that I say that about the gom jabbar test being used differnt ways IMO.

[salikadali]

Something interesting about the Reverend Mother's intentions with Paul; when she overheard the meeting with the Emperor and the Guild Navigator, in which the Emperor devulged his plans to do away with house Atreides, and also the Guild's "one small point"- the problem within house Atriedes, Paul, they told the Emporer that they wanted him killed. Apparently, the Guild was giving orders to the Emperor.

So this made the Reverend Mother (and the Bene Gesserit) curious about Paul, so she went to test him. Did she intend to kill him, possibly, but could not because he passed the test? She, after all, served the Emperor, I assume. Also, after Paul defeated the Emperor, he was not very pleased with the Reverend Mother; " I remember your gom jabbar, now you'll remember mine, I can kill with a word" - it seems, it was Paul's turn to do the testing. What was his gom jabbar? How was it different?

I would like this Assignment turned in no later than (whenever you want), you will not be graded. Class dismissed. Have a good weekend. :)

[quoudam72]

Ggeshino remember what you just described comes from the Lynch movie not the way it actually happens in the book the difference is important pay attention. Lynch has that taking place before the gom jabbar test and we never see the meeting of the Guild and Emperor Shaddam IV in the Herbert novel.

Another thing about the gom jabbar test it was seldom administered to men-children. As we all know the Bene Gesserit are a "sisterhood" so Paul was special in the fact that the test was being given to him. The Bene Gesserit sifted people to find humans and the gom jabbar was the test "crisis and observation". To answer your last question Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach he could look where no other Truthsayer could....both feminine and masculine pasts. The other Truthsayers could only look down the feminine past. And to make a long story short the Bene Gesserit could not control Paul even though they breed him and that was one of the most important goals of their breeding program. Control of the Kwisatz Haderach now do you see why it was important for Jessica to bear a daughter and no sons to the Duke Leto Atreides. Foolish witches!!!

[salikadali]

Foolish witches indeed. Some good points Fedaykin, I should go back and read some of the book(s). The Lynch movie is good, but kind of like a cliff notes version of the book. Herbert was a consultant on the set of Lynch's movie, which is not surprising, I guess, being the author. Even still, the movie was hindered by the length, and heavily edited.

That was one of my favorite ideas in the first book, about how the love between Jessica and Leto went against their(BeneGesserit, and I guess everyone else's) plans for control. They tried to manipulate the bloodlines but it backfired BIGTIME. cool,- Dune was a masterpiece of science fiction, kind of like the Lord of the Rings, although they are different and hard to compare.

Glad to know ya'll (thats right, I'm from the south) are out there

Thanx for the input:)

Question: This is one of the most confusing ideas in the book, what is it exactly that the Water of Life allows a person to do besides see the truth, ok-the spice expands conciousness, extends life, allows for space travel, all that, but what does the water of life do exactly, and why was it easier for women to take than men? Does it give prescient visions of the future and the past? Sort of like a collective conciousness, or memory? Cell memory perhaps?, but what about future memory, if there is such a thing. That reminds me of something King Arthur said about his story being of future memory. Fedaykin, you hit on some interesting ideas, and I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Metaphysics, la la la...I'm not afraid of it, although it can get confusing sometimes.

[salikadali]

Ok, I attempted to answer this question in the general discussion/general discussion section, for those interested- in the "Water of life" topic.

[ordos45]

Ok, would a hark manage to pass the test? (yes I know Paul is part hark)

[Digital Guerrilla]

I think a Hark would have alot of trouble with the gom jabbar test because of their "animal instincts" which would be to remove their hand from the box.

[daniel]

or they might eat it!!!!!

jk

[Acriku]

Eat their hand or the box? I could imagine a Hark, if hungry, would eat himself. And did Herbert ever mention female Harks?

[garth]

Feyd had slave girls that the Baron forced him to kill.