Prayer

[Acriku]

I've been seeing a heightened appeal both on and off of Fed2k towards prayer, and I have a question: No one actually believes in prayer still, do they? In this era of science and technology, how can prayer still remain a favorable practice? Hope? Ignorance? It's easy to believe in it? The days of magic and prayer are over, aren't they? Many questions. Few answers.

[Andrew]

Wasn't this thread made before? ::)

It is impossible to change people's minds about why they pray or how.

I certainly don't want to see a thread about:

"There is a decline in people praying. Do people really beleive in science still? In this era of non-science and devilish technology that bring people away from family. How can science be a favorable practice? laziness? unable to think for yourself? It's easy to use (even if you don't know how it works)? The days of science are gone, go talk with family members instead of being on the internet/technology."

Do I regularly pray? No. But I will soon to get through some rough times in the coming months.

Do I believe in prayer? NO. Do I think it will comfort others that do believe? YES.

Why do these other people beleive in prayer? Cause they are set in their religious ways and at an older age(40+). I doubt they will change it.

[Acriku]

Well I made a thread concerning public prayer, for a different purpose, but this more about prayer in general. Any thread beyond that is either too old, or quite different in responses from then and now. So, it's justified in my opinion to make this thread.

Whether people will change their minds about prayer is none of my current concerns regarding the purposes of this thread. It's frightening that people will do things just because it makes them comfortable, and do not even think them through before they do it. Are we not rational animals? Have people actually thought the practice of prayer through?

It may be derived from some inner-ego that an all-powerful being will bend towards the praying person's will and help them in even the most trivial of circumstances. Perhaps?

[Andrew]

No, I don't think that some God does something because you pray to them. But for those who do believe, it may be some sort of psychological relief to pray.

Maybe praying is like gambling? :-

And here is the link to the old prayer thread you made ;)

Prayer (dun dun DUN...)

And I agree you were right to make this thread if you wanted to. Sorry if I sounded harsh with that whole rant thingy. :)

[DjCiD]

I believe in prayer. Heres my story...

As you all know I have not been around the boards much lately. I have had a lot of stuff going on in my life. To start with my wife left. My mother and wife got into a scruff and my mother went to jail (what did you forget I was from the south ^-^ you can call me country raised but I'm no red-neck). Like I said my wife had left, she also took the kids with her. For an entire month her parents wouldn't allow me to see my children. We had to go through court to see who was going to get custody of the children for know until we go back for the final court date. Through this entire month I didn't have my children I prayed. My family prayed. Fellow church members prayed. Friends and their families prayed. I have learned that there is power in prayer. I find myself praying more through out the day, while I'm at work or on my commute around town. I have gotten to the point where I talk to God like He's right beside me. I know He's not right beside me but He still hears me as if He where.

Through the power of pray my children where returned back home, my son missed a lot of school and couldn't wait to go back. For a long time I thought man this is really hard on me, then I realized how much harder it is on the children.

I have a few other story's of the power of prayer I will save for another time, I will let Acriku make fun of my post for a bit :D

[Nyarlathotep]

Sorry to hear that Cid, hope things will get better in due time..

To Acriku:

No one actually believes in prayer still, do they? In this era of science and technology, how can prayer still remain a favorable practice? Hope? Ignorance? It's easy to believe in it? The days of magic and prayer are over, aren't they? Many questions. Few answers.

Yes, there are those who still believe in prayer. A prayer gives people hope. There's truely no ignorance involved. And for those who believe in prayer, the "days of magic and prayer" aren't over. Indeed, there are many questions, but there are just as many answers as long as you want to accept them.

[Acriku]

Thanks for the link Andrew, good memories.

Cid, sorry for that to happen to you, and I have just one thing to comment on. You say there is power in prayer, but could you have mistaken the power of humanity for such? The powerful feeling from closeness in the community can easily be mistaken for something else, and it seems you got that feeling when you and your friends prayed together. Last year I went to a friend's youth gathering, and even though I was a strong atheist, I felt the power of being close with fellow human beings, and it was mighty. If I believed then, it would have only strengthened my belief. I know now that it is not the belief that makes it powerful, but the gathering of fellow persons sharing that feeling. I can't explain it much past that.

Nyar, thanks for answering. How do you think there is no ignorance involved? They don't know if a god heard them, they don't know if a god would do anything to comply with the prayer, and they don't know if the wanted results were the doing of a god or simply other causes, such as other people or chance. There's not much of 'knowing' going on, like as you said, there is only hope. Basking in such ignorance is uncomforting, don't you think? Also, the dangers of reliance on prayer can hurt you and others in the process, relying on a god to help you or chance to help you, and not doing anything yourself. I remember a pastor trying to persuade me to the other side of the force, saying "Let yourself fall backwards, and Christ will catch you." Such reliance is unsafe, in my opinion.

[Caid Ivik]

Why do you think prayer is dead, Acriku? For me it is like drug, I need it for full performance of my abilities. I don't need to believe in it, as I don't have to just believe that I need food. Soul wants to eat as well as body.

[Nyarlathotep]

Acriku, it's not a matter of what we think. You need to make that difference and remember it. If a person has tried everything (in whatever situation), he/she might pray to get that last bit of hope. You either believe in it or you don't. It's a matter of the persons mind and believes. You don't believe in prayers, not a problem. But IMO prayers can't be questioned. Hope doesn't necessarily mean ignorance.

Example, a persons father is in coma. Doctors can't do anything apart from providing the machinery to keep the person alive. That person can do nothing. If he/she get's hope from praying, who are we to question that ? Who are we to call that ignorance ?

[Tio_Holtzmann]

prayer has worked for me plenty. and i dont mean that in a psychological-crutch way.

[Acriku]

I don't at all think that prayer is dead, Caid, my first post was geared towards people becoming flustered enough to reply to it truthfully. Guess it wasn't flustering enough.

Nyar, I am talking to whomever prays. If you pray, then I am talking to you. Sure, praying to get that last bit of hope (that the person can get elsewheres, without the crutch of whatever beliefs), but that's just one example of how praying is practiced. And it is not that I don't believe in prayers, it's that I don't believe in the idea that prayers work. It's like the idea of luck, completely made-up and appealing to the ignorant. It is my opinion that any act done without thought should be questioned, and the negligence of such questioning must not be ignored by the self.

Who am I to call that ignorance? I am someone who knows what ignorance is, for starters. I am also someone who can see that the person praying is nothing different than doing nothing, and yet it can potentially become worse than doing nothing if the person relies on prayer rather than actually doing something that may come up. No science in the world can help this person in a coma, yet the person thinks that a supreme being who that person is not even knowledgable of will listen to the person and, this is where the selfish part comes in, bend its will to fulfill his/her prayer, despite whatever might've happened, and never knowing whether or not the being ever fulfilled it. If that is not ignorance, and down-right selfishness, then the world has gone mad.

[TMA_1]

lol well you got straight to the core of your values acriku. Of course many people believe in prayer, and you know that, you just wrote this post in order to create pointless debate.

I believe in prayer, because i believe in a God that listens to prayer. You argue against enough people ofreligion to know it exists so why make a post like this? it is just silly.

[ordos45]

Everyone's already pretty much hit the points I'd address (and sorry Cid). I agree with what Caid said, prayer is like a drug for me too, I'm not at full performance without it.

Whenever I'm driving, I pray, not with my eyes closed of course, but I do. There are a lot of insane drivers on the road. To give one example of how this helps let me explain how I leave school for college courses. We have an access road, and you have to trigger the light for a green light, this lets you safely turn onto the highway. One day this year the car ahead of me triggered the light and went through, the light was still green when an SUV blew through the red light on his part of the road. The SUV would have had me, going a good seventy in a fifty-five zone as I was pulling out, had my car not slowed on me a good deal, seemingly on its own (No I didn't have the break on, and yes it ran perfectly ever since).

I accredit praying to having saved my life on that day, because had the car not acted up, I would've been hit in the driver's side door by someone going seventy miles per hour (or for our metric users 112 Kilometers per hour). And yes I did have a mechanic check on my car later, nothing was wrong with it.

You've never seen scientific studies and brain scans have you Acriku? Studies show that when a person enters a state of deep prayer or meditation a part of the brain that isn't usually very active becomes used. Other studies show that patients prayed for do better than those who aren't.

[Acriku]

lol well you got straight to the core of your values acriku. Of course many people believe in prayer, and you know that, you just wrote this post in order to create pointless debate.

I believe in prayer, because i believe in a God that listens to prayer. You argue against enough people ofreligion to know it exists so why make a post like this? it is just silly.

Oh brother. First of all, I explained why I worded my post the way I did, unless of course you didn't read a thing I said. And second, if this debate is so pointless, why did you respond to it? Useless drivel coming from you, sadly.

Ah, Ordos, an actual response. Your analogy of prayer to a drug is actually quite accurate.

Had you not prayed before this ordeal, would your car still have slowed down? Millions of people die in car accidents every year, why does any god up there choose to save you, and let all of them die? Surely some of them pray for their safety, so how is your prayer, how should I say, better? Isn't it selfish to think that a supreme being let you live instead of all of them? Talk to the relatives of accident victims, and tell them that you were favored by god more than their lost loved one. Lastly, do you have any reason to accredit prayer? Is it this sort of reasoning: I prayed, I survived an almost fatal ordeal, therefore praying saved my life. Shaky logic you got there, chap.

Sure I've 'heard' of those studies, Ordos, but what does this prove? That deep thought merely uses more than what you would use for daily things that do not require as deep of thought? That's fantastic. But this is as far as it goes. And speaking of studies showing that patients prayed for do better than those who aren't prayed for, there was a study done showing that patients prayed for do not do better than those who aren't prayed for, just look here for a summary of the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11761499&dopt=Abstract

It only takes one study to falsify any "scientific study."

[HasimirFenring]

I don't understand how people can actually believe that prayer 'works'. For every prayer that was 'answered' (aka events happened to coincide with your wishes) how many millions went unanswered? It's easy to point to an example of a time when a prayer helped, but why are some prayers answered and others (the VAST majority) ignored? Praying seems like a wishful interpretation of reality to me.

EDIT: sorry Cid... I wasnt thinking of you. I hope things turn out well for you.

[DjCiD]

Thanks guys for your words of encouragement!

Acriku I never said I prayed with these people, just that they prayed for the situation. You see I'm shy when I pray, I prefer to do it alone, but am not embarrassed to do it in public surroundings. If the Spirit calls I pray, if I feel someone needs a quick prayer support, I'm praying. At the end of the day before I lay my head to rest I'm burning the midnite oil down on my knees.

However I do agree there is a certain closeness found when people are praying together, I like to describe that felling as the presence if the Holy Spirit.

[Inoculator9]

Well, to be frank, I think praying is pointless, in the sense that a higher being doesn't hear it and help you... but I do feel strongly that it is theropeutic. If people feel better for having done it, then I say, good for you and keep doing it.

[alchemi2]

Ever heard of belief or faith. if you belive that you can succeed at something then your halfway there, if you have faith in something again your halfway there. it matters not if your prayers are answered just the quiet time praying can bring releif and help you think through a problem time.

it brings to mine the old story of the man who meets the lord at the end of his life and looks back at the tracks left in the sands of time behind. why two sets of footprints lord he ask? because you have always walked with me throughout your life says the lord.

the man looks closer at the tracks and see at times there is only one set. he says to the Lord why in those troubled times did you leave me alone. the Lord looks at him and smiles. i never left you in those times of prayer i carried you.

Athiest generally learn how to pray in the trenches. ;)

[Nyarlathotep]

And it is not that I don't believe in prayers, it's that I don't believe in the idea that prayers work.

If this is the point of discussion, you might as well end here. If someone who believes prays for his/her loved one that has been in coma for quite a while, sees that person awake again, he/she will tell you that prayer works. Another example is Cid (sorry to use you as example Cid). Look at what Cid first replied..

Again, who are we to say it didn't ? Who are we to take that hope away from a person by telling them it wasn't the prayer that saved him/her (he might have awakend anyway right?) ?

If this is your point, you can't honestly want to go further with this discussion as it is pointless (and kinda disrespectful to those who do pray IMO)...

[Acriku]

Well, to be frank, I think praying is pointless, in the sense that a higher being doesn't hear it and help you... but I do feel strongly that it is theropeutic. If people feel better for having done it, then I say, good for you and keep doing it.

Would you say the same to the dead children whose mothers prayed instead of going to the doctor? Not to be dramatic, but reliance on prayer can be dangerous.

Ever heard of belief or faith. if you belive that you can succeed at something then your halfway there, if you have faith in something again your halfway there. it matters not if your prayers are answered just the quiet time praying can bring releif and help you think through a problem time.

I've heard of belief or faith, but I've also heard of reason and truth. Which do you prefer? And we've gone over many times how therapeutic praying can be, but then again so,too, can drugs.

it brings to mine the old story of the man...

I actually have a cup with this on it, my mom bought it of course. Cute story, however it is not an argument nor is it support for prayers working.

Athiest generally learn how to pray in the trenches.

It's a good thing you don't let the folks at http://www.maaf.info/ hear you, because everything in that sentence is wrong, and they would rip you a new one.

If this is the point of discussion, you might as well end here. If someone who believes prays for his/her loved one that has been in coma for quite a while, sees that person awake again, he/she will tell you that prayer works. Another example is Cid (sorry to use you as example Cid). Look at what Cid first replied..

So much for truth, eh? If they believed in Allah, they'd attribute their prayers answered to Allah, or to Vishri, or Thor, etc. I think you get my point.

Again, who are we to say it didn't ? Who are we to take that hope away from a person by telling them it wasn't the prayer that saved him/her (he might have awakend anyway right?) ?

Who are we to let them bask in ignorance? Who are we to let them never know the truth, and you know that the truth...shall set you free.

If this is your point, you can't honestly want to go further with this discussion as it is pointless (and kinda disrespectful to those who do pray IMO)...

So, we should never question practices and just continue to ignore them because of the fear of 'disrespecting' other people? Hardly what a person who values truth and reason would say.

Is everyone going to continue commenting on how therapeutic prayer is, and never get to the relevant point? Does prayer work?

[Nyarlathotep]

Acriku, I asnwered your question, there's no need to put it up again in bold. You've asked it and it's answered.

So much for truth, eh? If they believed in Allah, they'd attribute their prayers answered to Allah, or to Vishri, or Thor, etc. I think you get my point.

Yeah so ?? What I said still remains doesn't it ?

Who are we to let them bask in ignorance? Who are we to let them never know the truth, and you know that the truth...shall set you free.

You turning the question. Try to answer mine first.

Besides, it's what someone believes in. It's their opinion, why do you so desperately want to change it ??

So, we should never question practices and just continue to ignore them because of the fear of 'disrespecting' other people? Hardly what a person who values truth and reason would say.

No, you can question practices, no problem. In this case, people get a lot of hope from prayers (look at the examples). It's fine if someone thinks they don't work. But stating it has "ignorance" involved (this is where I think it's getting disrespectful), I think one needs to stop discussing it.

Again (without examples this time), yes prayers work for those who believe in them.

[TMA_1]

I agree with ordos and his statements. I have to add though, that it cant always be proven that prayer actually works with spiritual merits. It is all faith, and you understand that well since you say you dont "believe" prayer works.

Think of it man, the world of man holds in general to something spiritual, many people believe in prayer and many of those people are of sound mind. Now they could be wrong, no getting around that, but when you debate this stuff, you take out the credability of somebody who prays. It is a typical tactic of people who wish to be cynical. It is okay to be cynical, but temper it with some reason is all. Often sceptics and cynics will drive themselves so much that they will become just as unreasonable as those who are grand optimists and believers in spirit.

Descartes made a lot of sense when he said that to the "unbeliever", God cannot be proven through spiritual means. They need to first attain the idea that a God exists rationally, this is called God Consciousness, then if they rationally accept this based on various things (Like Dune says actually in one of the seven mystic questions: Who is it that thinks?) then they might accept the spiritual.

It would be hard to convince you acriku, but do you want to be convinced?

[Caid Ivik]

Primarily, prayer is not a thing to believe in. It's a tool of believe in something higher. Contact with it. I can yell "Allah akbar!" when I feel it would be good to thank Him for something, like it is a sign of kindness to thank to any our helpers. If we have them directly here or just trough Holy Spirit. But there are many types of praying, thanking is just one of them.

[Nyarlathotep]

Primarily, prayer is not a thing to believe in. It's a tool of believe in something higher. Contact with it. I can yell "Allah akbar!" when I feel it would be good to thank Him for something, like it is a sign of kindness to thank to any our helpers. If we have them directly here or just trough Holy Spirit. But there are many types of praying, thanking is just one of them.

Of course prayer is something one can believe in. I fail to see why not. Yes, it is used as part of a believe, that doesn't make it "just a tool". If one doesn't believe in prayers, would he/she still pray ?

[Acriku]

Acriku, I asnwered your question, there's no need to put it up again in bold. You've asked it and it's answered.

So, no one argues that prayer does not work? If someone objects to that, then it hasn't been answered.

Yeah so ?? What I said still remains doesn't it ?

Not exactly. That person will tell me their praying worked, but I disagree. They do not know it worked, etc, I've already gone over the many cases of ignorance.

You turning the question. Try to answer mine first.

I figured it was a rhetorical question. Here's my answer: who am I not to?

Besides, it's what someone believes in. It's their opinion, why do you so desperately want to change it ??

Because, they're wrong? You see, you and I probably value different things. I value truth, and because I value truth I must not just let such superstitions be. A new show on Discovery Channel, called MythBusters, is a show with two people of the same aspirations - to find out the truth. They question it, test it, and conclude whether or not the superstition or myth is true. If popular urban legends can be questioned, why can't prayer be questioned? If people still want to believe in it, despite my demonstration of reasoning, then I will stop. I will wonder why they'd want to continue to believe in it, but I wouldn't keep trying to convince them. Some people just have to help themselves.

No, you can question practices, no problem. In this case, people get a lot of hope from prayers (look at the examples). It's fine if someone thinks they don't work. But stating it has "ignorance" involved (this is where I think it's getting disrespectful), I think one needs to stop discussing it.

Stating that something has ignorance involved is neither disrespectful nor is it degrading. I'm ignorant in a lot of areas, but that just means I do not know much in those areas. The whole practice of prayer and the desired goals involve a lot of unknowns.

Again (without examples this time), yes prayers work for those who believe in them.

Since the desired goal of prayer is to have a being change the world towards their request, I can hardly take you serious when you say that it does work for believers.