Spartans = Sardaukar

[TMA_1]

There are many aspects of similarity. I will mention some now.

Both were at the top of the pyramid as far as soldering during their glory years.

Both trained early in their years (The sardaukar werent all old convicts who happened to land on salusa secondus.) Had a strict regimen that comprised of survival techniques, martial arts, formations and marching, stratagy and tactics. etc...

Both Had a sense of superiority of themselves. The Spartans believed to be direct descendants of Herculies, and thought themselves physically and mentally superior to the other cast of greeks. Also greater warriors because of their track record. The Sardaukar saw themselves directly tied to Corrino loyalty and protection, and gained tremendus pride from this. They also were the greatest of warriors for a time, and this gave them a sense of great arrogance.

Because of the arrogance both had, there built a feeling of a "select society". Whenever you have a select society, you strive to be better within it, and it builds a great sense of community and pride to be "one of the few". Leto and Paul talk of this in the early parts of Dune.

I have to go right now, Ill add later. I just see a big similarity, what do you guys think? I think the Spartans were the closest in relation to the Sardaukar.

[Timenn]

You make some big comparisons. Perhaps the Spartans were the elite warriors of the ancient age.

But I can't really see the Spartans and the Sardaukar as close sides.

Maybe it is because Sardaukar fight for House Corrino, and Spartans for Sparta. The Spartans fight for their own city, while the Sardaukar fight for someone else actually.

But much is the same, both their lives are dedicated to fighting and training for war.

[Caid Ivik]

Spartans are a nation, sardaukars were something like a caste. Or better, like a sect. As whole Duniverse is inspired by islamic empires around Persia, same could be with sardaukars. Like warrior-sect of Assassins, which now is in english dictionaries a synonym for murderer. Troughout whole muslim world in middle ages were the best warriors fanatics - not only assassin see moorish morabitin, persian mujahedin or palestinian nassirians. In fact, we had very similar thing in knight orders.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Let me know if this is slightly off topic, but a better comparison between cannon factions and history factions I believe would be Harkonnen = Roman.

I've always seen an extremely vivid and striking depiction of Roman way of life in the Harkonnen house. Even the names and names of their main city; Harkonnen-Roman, Harko-Rome (ok. that may be a bit of a stretch..). But their fascination with bloody arena games, and their "Evil" attitude as many like to purport it(personally I don't see the Harkonnen as Evil anymore then the Atreides are) as a parallel towards the standard norm in ancient imperialistic Rome: rich, right(from their point of view), aristocratically ruled, slave using, militaristic, a high effluence for social flaunting, ect.

Even their military tactics tend to be similar. This may be simply a personal bias, but I always see the Harkonnen troops as large armored divisions strikingly similar to their Roman Legion counterparts. Made up of richly furnished armored shock troops of mostly the one type, led by militaristic AND political leaders (everyone in the Harkonnen court seem to be both politicians as well as military leaders).

Course.. that's all i got right now :/

[Mahdi]

I really diagree with the Harkonnen/Roman connection, the two are nothing alike, not even int he arena games. In Rome most people voluntered to become Gladiators, they weren't drugged slaves who were merely there to be executed at the hands of royalty. Gladiators were huge hero's to the Roman people, and they gladly accepted there shortened lives as the price for there fame.

Also, I seriously doubt that when the Harkonnens left there fiefs people clambered for there return. Not to mention all the art, philosophy, etc. that the Harkonnens encouraged ::)

[TMA_1]

As whole Duniverse is inspired by islamic empires around Persia,

trust me on this caid, you are wrong.lol

also the spartans were a cast of greeks, they hailed from a different family line than the other city states.

The Duniverse isnt just islamic in nature. It is an amalgomation of many nations that were once strong in the past. Soon after the advent of space travel, huge family syndicates grew and began to dominate over financial and political issues. These families formed into great houses, and soon they would be the prime force behind the universe.

[Duncan_ghola]

the gladiators werent even killed often, they needed gladiators to fight and attract the public, so once a gladiator was bested it usually ended there, it got really bloody when they ran out of gladiators and started having competitions between chickens...

IMO the sardukar were more like a mixture between the romans and spartans, spartan warfare wasnt very strategic

[TMA_1]

hmm, spartans not having a strong art of war can be argued..

Also the romans werent (well they turned into often) an autocracy, like the harks were, they were a republic, then later a sort of enlightened monarchy with the senate (supposedly) keeping the emperor in check. The romans were a great people, even though most of their culture wasent even theirs eventually.hehe

[Caid Ivik]

As whole Duniverse is inspired by islamic empires around Persia,

trust me on this caid, you are wrong.lol

also the spartans were a cast of greeks, they hailed from a different family line than the other city states.

The Duniverse isnt just islamic in nature. It is an amalgomation of many nations that were once strong in the past. Soon after the advent of space travel, huge family syndicates grew and began to dominate over financial and political issues. These families formed into great houses, and soon they would be the prime force behind the universe.

Sparta was a town, not a "caste". Unlike Athenai or Corinth, Sparta wasn't at shore, so they based their defence on ground tactics. Warships fought mostly with catapults and bows, so close contact between soldiers was only if target was boarded (what they did usually when enemy ship was crippled and her crew decimated). Soldiers of naval powers weren't used to ground fight, where they simply could not avoid close combat. You can sink a ship; but not a phalanx of hoplitoi. There's no need to call Spartans superior warriors. Better would be that Athenians were inferior.

[TMA_1]

hmm, see many of these greek nation states originated from family castes. These families grew and built the nation states that are known to us. Each nation state hails from a certain ancestral origin. They arent just a nation state, they are by blood a specific kind of greek, different in origin from their brethren. This is one of the reasons why the spartans were so aloof with other nation states. They believed that since they were direct offshoots of the half man half god Herculies, that they somehow were a superior race of people. You are overgeneralizing I think.

[Caid Ivik]

Athena was much more glorious warrior as she was a goddess. She was armed since her birth...well, it was even a sword which opened Zeus' head for her to jump off. Compare Hercules (or better Heracles to be strict) and Athena, which would give you more pride as a blood?

[Seal89999]

I can see some similarities....

They were both great warriors, set on battle and being strong.

But as somebody else said the spartans fought for there land as the sardaukar fight for the emperor.

There are both similarities and differences...

[Duncan_ghola]

what about the similarities between germany in the 30's and 40's and the sardukar?

[ilexatrei]

The majority of the gladiator games in ancient Rome were to kill off certain peoples. Mostly jews by the new Christian philosophy but, there was a time when Christians were thrown in there.

I could have sworn it was the axe of the great (and yet lame) blacksmith of the gods that let Athena loose from Zeus.

Sparta was not controlled by a democratic society like Athens was they were similar to the Corrinos in that they conquered by command. It seems more like a earlier Corrino who would grab planets for his own interests and creating a empire.

I have to disagree when it comes to the German Soldiers of the 1930's and 1940's because it was not about the metal of the soldier. It was more about the strategic placement of the troops that allowed the Blitzkrieg to work so well against Europe during that time period.

[Vanguard3000]

Hephaeustus used a golden axe to split open Zeus' head, from which came the cause of his headaches - a fully armoured Athena, armed with a spear.

[TMA_1]

Caid, your a smart guy but sometimes you explain to me information that has no meaning to the conversation at hand. I believe you when you explain your wisdom on greek mythology, but I was not trying to argue with you whether or not Herculies was a great warrior or not, or whether another God or Goddess was better. I am just explaining to you what the Spartans thought. Not trying to stir anything up, or make you feel bad, I just seems that you say a lot of the things you do in order to impress, because it comes completely out of left field sometimes.

not trying to argue, just wish you would focus more on the issues at hand on this thread at least.

Herculies was not the patron warrior God of almost all greeks, but see, there was a lot of henotheism, where a certain family, tribe, caste would worship a specific God over others, or give praise to one in specific. The spartans gave praise to herculies because they supposedly descended from him. He was also a legendary hero.

Also, the german solders arent a good example. They had a completely different honor system from the sardaukar. While the germans enforced an idea of aryan pride among other things, the sardaukar could really care less about all of that stuff. They were cold solders, and many times are mentioned to not freely think in the way we understand it. They were trained to think on their feet tactically and stratigically, so that they could be versitile, but they were practically brainwashed and almost robotically served their generals. Also, Hitler never really was able to fully use the solders he trained from an early age, and the training practices are different from the sardaukar and the germans.

I think that it is too much of a cliche to say that the germans are related to the sardaukar. It would be like saying that the harkonnens are like the germans. You can fit the germans undre nazi rule under any sort of totalitarian dictatorship or philosophy ahd find similar values.

[Mahdi]

The majority of the gladiator games in ancient Rome were to kill off certain peoples. Mostly jews by the new Christian philosophy but, there was a time when Christians were thrown in there.

No, the gladiator games were entertainment. They jsut tossed Christians in there as a quick, entertaining way to execute them. They didn't actually fight in the games. Gladiators were slaves or people who voluntered to be slaves just to becoem gladiators.

The average life span of a gladiator was 12 games, although if they survived to 25 they were given there freedom.

[ilexatrei]

The majority of the gladiator games in ancient Rome were to kill off certain peoples. Mostly jews by the new Christian philosophy but, there was a time when Christians were thrown in there.

No, the gladiator games were entertainment. They jsut tossed Christians in there as a quick, entertaining way to execute them. They didn't actually fight in the games. Gladiators were slaves or people who voluntered to be slaves just to becoem gladiators.

The average life span of a gladiator was 12 games, although if they survived to 25 they were given there freedom.

It depends upon the ruler at the time actually...If you had Nero (666) for example than you have Christians dying for his own pleasure and the ability to destroy a bothersome religion.

...

The Nazi regime bred warriors sort of like the breeding programs of the Bene Gesserit. But...more so like Leto II's breeding programs looking for the best qualities for his Golden Path.

oh and don't forget German and Nazi are too entirely different things...It's like Democrat and American.

[Caid Ivik]

Caid, your a smart guy but sometimes you explain to me information that has no meaning to the conversation at hand. I believe you when you explain your wisdom on greek mythology, but I was not trying to argue with you whether or not Herculies was a great warrior or not, or whether another God or Goddess was better. I am just explaining to you what the Spartans thought. Not trying to stir anything up, or make you feel bad, I just seems that you say a lot of the things you do in order to impress, because it comes completely out of left field sometimes.

not trying to argue, just wish you would focus more on the issues at hand on this thread at least.

Herculies was not the patron warrior God of almost all greeks, but see, there was a lot of henotheism, where a certain family, tribe, caste would worship a specific God over others, or give praise to one in specific. The spartans gave praise to herculies because they supposedly descended from him. He was also a legendary hero.

You say that Sparta was conceit because they had Heracles as direct father. But as Athena was much greater warrior, as well as a goddess, this point is senseless. Sardaukars not only were superior, they also felt it. Spartans could not be, when Athenai had a goddess for a patron, and they only some son of a bitch (tough his father was Zeus as well). But anyway, this characteristic should be better for i.e.ginaz warriors, which really are descendants of some Ginaz (or students). Sardaukars are a warrior sect which arised in hard land, what gave them strength and fury. Like Assassins.

[TMA_1]

hmmm good points, but I have to disagree.

[Apollyon]

There are similarities in everything.

Here are some dissimilarities:

Sardaukar don't keep thousands of slaves.

Sardaukar don't kill their female children (or most thereof - indeed sardaukar children are unmentioned)

Obviously there are more, but they get more and more irrelevent. As I said there's nothing special linking the Spartans and the Sardaukar. The spartans are a race of people and the sardaukar as I see it are not in the same way.

[Caid Ivik]

In fact, aren't Sardaukars slaves? Slave warriors, trained from infancy to fight and not care for own life, were very dreaded parts of many ancient armies, especially in muslim countries. For example ottoman janisaries, raised from white children captured on their raids - these were unbeatable too.

[nemafakei]

What do you mean by having a discussion on Dune and ancient Greece without me?

The Spartans were necessarily militaristic because of the subjugation of the entire helot race - this is a huge factor in spartan history which cannot be ignored. They were mostly far more worried about helot uprisings than foreign invasion; they were well protected by the Laconian terrain, and confident in their own strength should the need arise.

"Sparta was a town, not a "caste""

Caid, Sparta was not a town, but a community of mess-halls, spread across the whole plain of Sparta. If you go there (which I did a few days ago), you will find only a few pieces of rubble which were part of classical sparta.

What made you a spartan was your birth. Only in the latest times of classical Sparta could non-Spartans become honourary citizens (the spartan population was in serious decline by then).

"They believed that since they were direct offshoots of the half man half god Herculies, that they somehow were a superior race of people."

I think one or both of you may be verging on referring to the custom most notable in the Peloponnese to worship the dead, which is a slightly different matter to direct ancestry.

"There's no need to call Spartans superior warriors. Better would be that Athenians were inferior."

No, I would definitely disagree. Sparta was clearly abnormal within Greece for its heavy focus on miltary training, to the exclusion of almost all else; they were consequently superior fighters as a whole, especially the Spartiates.

I agree that there is much similarity between Sparta and the Sardaukar, but be aware also that this is because Sparta has been a recognised, if somewhat erronously used, source of inspiration for military imagery for two thousand years; imagery without spartan influence is actually far more surprising.

"The majority of the gladiator games in ancient Rome were to kill off certain peoples. Mostly jews by the new Christian philosophy but, there was a time when Christians were thrown in there"

Initially gladiatorial combat was a way of honouring the dead on the first anniversary of their death. However, they became so popular that C. Julius Caesar decided to allow it for any anniversary (and most people could therefore find some relative or another who died on any given day of the year); this people-pleasing move made him very popular, as the fights were now made far more common. Fundamentally thereafter, the purpose became more popularity than chthonic honour. Gladiatorial combats (and variations thereof) were also used for other forms of propaganda, including the killing Christians (e.g. dressed in animal pelts and left as food for dogs) as scapegoats for the fire by Nero. They were also used as streetlamps, according to Tacitus, by the way.

Though note some slight parallel between the Guild and the Corinthians with their monopoly on the isthmus.

[Caid Ivik]

Limited citizenship is a usual thing in ancient ages. Not spartans were the high caste, but citizens. But still, how do we call a place where live many clans in a community with some leaders over them? I would say there is no better descriptive word than "town".

[nemafakei]

"Limited citizenship is a usual thing in ancient ages. Not spartans were the high caste, but citizens."

I'm not sure I quite understand - are you saying that Sparta was just normal in its citiizenship rules? That the treatment of the Helots was nothing strange within ancient greece? Hardly!

"But still, how do we call a place where live many clans in a community with some leaders over them? I would say there is no better descriptive word than "town"."

How many towns have you come across that extend over a whole plain? I would not presume to name any word as superior, but 'state' or 'race' or 'community'... but town implies that there is a concentration of buildings, and the Spartan civilisation was simply not a builder civilisation.