The Israeli- Palestinian conflict

[leo]

Ordos-What do u think will stop them from attacking once more? and more? and more? USA is hated by many groups even more than Israel.

The life in Israel is hard cause of the bombings but u over exaggerate in ur reaction. I don’t remember seeing my friend being shot by a sniper next to me. The life here is actually not much different than in the USA.

About the nuclear weapons. We will get a condemnation by the UN. So what? UN basically condemns us when we kill terrorists. And if it will condemn us why won’t it condemn any other country with such a weapon?

P.S

You didn’t answer me about the few last sentences, which I think very important. Just for you to see how your country reacted in only one case.

[ordos45]

What do u think will stop them from attacking once more? and more? and more? USA is hated by many groups even more than Israel.

The life in Israel is hard cause of the bombings but u over exaggerate in ur reaction. I don’t remember seeing my friend being shot by a sniper next to me. The life here is actually not much different than in the USA.

About the nuclear weapons. We will get a condemnation by the UN. So what? UN basically condemns us when we kill terrorists. And if it will condemn us why won’t it condemn any other country with such a weapon?

P.S

You didn’t answer me about the few last sentences, which I think very important. Just for you to see how your country reacted in only one case.

I'm quite sure its only a matter of time until we get hit again, and then we'll tighten security, and eventually be hit again harder.

I think in my opinion, UN condemnation doesn't really mean that much. It never seems to stop anyone.

For the last few sentences I didn't address:

Probably they'd condemn your nation if it did the same thing as the USA has done in retaliation (after all, we've been rather condemned for it). I think Arafat should be removed, as your government said it would do eventually. He was head of the PLO before it became the PA, and like you said, its been proven time after time he's been funding radicals including his...Martyr's Brigade? Unfortunately as many of these groups operate out of Gaza (one of the world's most heavily populated areas), civilian casualties often occur in reprisal strikes.

[Egeides]

leo, there aren't only Israel citizens that are suffering!! There are 3 times more casualties and 10 or more times more damage on the Palestinian side, don't forget them! The terrorists WONT stop, since their argument to attack is "we're attacked". Is destroying houses and giving them to Israelites a solution against terrorists?! And what about stopping children to go to school, going to the Internet provider and bomb it when it was the last way to go to school (and communicate)?

Who do you believe is terrorizing the opposite side's CIVILIANS the most and destroying the civilians' property the most?

[Anathema]

The problem with Arafat is that he is quite popular among the Palestinians. But the way his health looks now, he might be dead soon anyway.

The way I view suicide terrorists is that most of them are actually selfish without even realising it. Basicly they blow themselves up because of the prospect of going to heaven for carrying out Allahs will, without even considering the fact that their actions will only cause reprisal actions.

[Noam]

leo, there aren't only Israel citizens that are suffering!! There are 3 times more casualties and 10 or more times more damage on the Palestinian side, don't forget them! The terrorists WONT stop, since their argument to attack is "we're attacked". Is destroying houses and giving them to Israelites a solution against terrorists?! And what about stopping children to go to school, going to the Internet provider and bomb it when it was the last way to go to school (and communicate)?

Who do you believe is terrorizing the opposite side's CIVILIANS the most and destroying the civilians' property the most?

That is rather obvious, you know. Palestinians are suffering as well. Like when we dropped a bomb on cute little Salah Shade, an arch-terrorist from the Hamas organization last year, and killed his body-guard and 5 children he held as a human shield - no doubt he suffered. We arrest and assassin terrorists on a regular basis, and they indeed suffer - but the point is that these are terrorists. On the other hand, you have me. An Israeli citizen, a left winger. Just an ordinary man. Last week, a restaurant in which i tend to eat when i go to the beach has exploded. 20 died. The suicider's house destroyed. A few months ago a bus exploded in the street where I live. Whoops, 20 or so more killed, of which 2 girls from my school. The sender of the suicider was recently assassinated by the IDF. A few months before, a restaurant 10 minutes of walk from my house exploded. Again, around 20 killed, including one from my Physics class...

How can you even compare? They are suffering curfews and such in order to prevent from the Hamas and the Jihad and so on from terrorizing Israel. Is that a bad thing? I reckoned everyone would criticize Arafat for letting the terror run freely, and not only that, but also giving a lot of money for the terror organization. That is where the "humanitarian aid" from the european union handed directly to Arafat goes to, by the way. You'd have to be absolutely naive to believe that the Palestinian government (or at least the most of it) opposes terror.

Not to mention that Syria, Iran and until recently Iraq support the Palestinian terror against the "Zionist enemy" with money, weapons and traning camps for more terrorists. It's total nonsense to point your finger towards Israel, that is being terrorized, and not towards the arab world, that is terrorizing Israel.

"What should we do next?" is a different question. Everyone agrees that a compromise is the only solution. But as they really love to say here, you need two for tango, or in other words - as long as the Hamas and the Jihad and the rest of them have represantative in the Palestinian government, and as long as it is Arafat who is standing in the top of everything - no compromise is possible.

[Egeides]

I was talking about civilians and you answered me about terrorists: I didn't even talked about them in my post! So I'd like it if you'd answer to my post: about civilians. Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system and installing bombs at the Internet provider is against terrorists?

[Edric O]

Actually, the generalization I made is based on statisics. When polled, most Palestinians say they are against the suicide bombings but support their cause.

Okay, I can agree with that.

But what exactly is the "cause" that those people said they were supporting? What was the actual poll question?

What makes it their land? It belonged to the Jews hundreds of years before Islam existed. It is no more Palestine's land because it was theirs a century ago than it is Israel's land because it was theirs a millenium ago. The past cannot be altered and like it or not, Israel is there now. What would you expect them to do? Pack their bags and disperse back into the countries in which they were treated worse than animals a few decades ago?

Of course not! I strongly support the existence of a Jewish state. After all the things the Jewish people went through, it's absolutely clear that they need a homeland to call their own.

But you don't build yourself a homeland by taking a country and driving its former occupants out. The Israelis have driven countless Palestinians out of their lands.

Looks reasonable enough to me. Look at the border on a map. Israelis have the coastline, and an inland area that juts out to just include Jerusalem, and it doesn't really serve the interests of the world to have the holy birthplace of three major religions controlled by people who are intolerant of other faiths.

Last time I checked, the Israelis were refusing to allow the Palestinians to establish their own state... That hardly seems "fair" to me.

And if it seems a little unreasonable to you, don't you think that the Jews had a right to be a little unreasonable after the sh*t they went through in WWII? They lived peacefully, intermixed with other faiths, and were passive towards the war, until they were subjected to absolutely horrific brutality for no reason at all. If I'd gone through that, yeah, I'd be a little unreasonable.

I completely agree. But how is it the Palestinians' fault that a twisted Austrian madman and his band of lunatics decided to go on a killing spree 60 years ago?

Edric, I'm getting a little sick of you slapping a label on my forehead and vomiting a stomach-full of rhetoric in my ear. I am no more a capitalist (the way you see them) than a libertarian is an anarchist, and I don't think I'm the only one who's a tad irritated that you seem to need to bring economic arguments into virtually every thread.

Merely using the word "capitalist" is hardly an argument at all, much less an "economic argument".

And don't pretend you're a saint in this matter. You've said things along the lines of "I don't expect a communist like you to understand" numerous times.

The reason why I often bring up capitalism and communism is that in most political issues there tend to be certain sides. I always want to make a clear distinction between those sides, and for some reason this tends to irritate people.

[Noam]

Children in prison? That's new. Also bombing an ISP is new to me...

Stopping all school system? No. Although we should have. Have you seen their horrific syllabus? They don't have Isreal in their Geography lessons, they learn about all the bravery of the suicide bombers and how they are true muslims... Come on, the Hamas has its terror summer-camps where young to-be terrorists learn how to use a rifle and hate the Zionist enemy. Comparing ourselves to our neighbours, such as the US in Afghanistan, the Spanish against the Basques - I think we're handling the situation in the most humane way possible. When the palestinian residents in Jordan demanded a state of their own it ended up with 18,000 of dead palestinians. We're not only ready to give them everything they want but our lives, we negotiate with them and support them with water and electricity from our own systems.

Yet nothing helps. As we are too humane to just shoot till they stop, we will soon seperate us from them one-sidedly. The wall between us and them is the first step of it. This is, in my opinion, the only solution for this, although it will make their health and economy and life extremely hard. I cannot see any other solution. Do you?

[Mister.G]

Neither side is blameless of course, but here is a lesson in propaganda.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2120/Rachel_Corrie_Propaganda.html

Pay special attention to the case of young Tuvia, who was reported by the NY Times as Palestinian, and the photo of him bloodied with an IDF officer standing over him. That young man is actually an American Jew,, the IDF officer shown to be "brutalizing" him, saved his life.

The police man came to save his life.that's true.

Do you remmber Russia and her fight with the islamic nation ? (i dont know the name in english sorry)

Russia killed them like targets without care. They didnt care from what the world said,they cared only about their own good.They finished their's fight.

IDF is very strong army.They tried to kill only terrorists but when a terrorist hide behind his wife or behind his children and we have to kill him to disable terrors attack and killing of more people in the future,we must kill him at any cost.

I belive in peace like between swiss and france but i know it wont happen because the leaders dont care about their's people like arafat and sharon in my opinion they care only about themself for example araft's daughter isnt at Israel she learns at school at Europe.

Another thing is that the Arabs have many countries to go and jews dont.so why this country is so important to them ?

in my opinon to take control over our country and make it an islamic country because they want all the middle east for them.

I will be glad to hear your opinion too.

I was talking about civilians and you answered me about terrorists: I didn't even talked about them in my post! So I'd like it if you'd answer to my post: about civilians. Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system and installing bombs at the Internet provider is against terrorists?

1)Yes, the family and the family's friends support terror.If they would stop the terror they wont have to see their's houses destroyed.

2)Yes,most of them are IDF try to kill terrorists and their supporters.Offcurse mistakes happens IDF is built from humans after all.

3)There arent people who emprisoned without any charge.You dont belive it come to live here for 1 month and you will see.

4)If children are at jail meybe they deserve it and like i said There arent people who emprisoned without any charge if there are they will be dismissed as soon as possible.

5)can you explain yourself please ? i didnt understand it sorry.

[Egeides]

Noam, I do not have a solution to bombers that are killing X people if the other side is killing 3X people. Diminishing the terror would be a start.

Source for Internet provider destroyed: 2600 Magazine (www.2600.com)

Source for children in prison: www.salon.com

alternative source: http://www.dci-pal.org/prisonweb/advideas.html

(sorry, can't find the exact articles: it's been some time...)

Noam, you didn't answer my MAIN question: What about the civilians?? Do you believe that MOST of the people with destroyed lives/property are terrorists?

Or if you need a very specific question: Do you believe it is correct to destroy someone's house so that you can take the place, in some cases by declaring it "archeological site" to get it a few months later?

[leo]

Edric o:

We are opposing a Palestinian state? Man, refresh your mind. Last time I checked we were the first to offer one and Arafat was the one who opposed. Israeli former PM- Barak offered the Palestinians at Camp David more than they could ever imagine. But he was rejected. And you know why? Cause Arafat never can accept such a move. The majority wants ALL Israel. If he would accept it will be immediately understood as a weakens and he would be recognized as a surrender. The second he will do that he is gonna be lynched by a well-crowded mass of raging Palestinians.

Don’t you dare blaming Israel in the failure of negotiation. After all we are the one who push towards peace and we are the one with the power and the land. But still we offer way too much. Show me one county willing to sacrifice its own capital city. And especially a city like Jerusalem which is the heart, hope and soul of every Jew.

[Mister.G]

Edric o:

We are opposing a Palestinian state? Man, refresh your mind. Last time I checked we were the first to offer one and Arafat was the one who opposed. Israeli former PM- Barak offered the Palestinians at Camp David more than they could ever imagine. But he was rejected. And you know why? Cause he never can accept such a move. The majority wants ALL Israel. If he would accept it will be immediately understood as a weakens and he would be recognized as a surrender. The second he will do that he is gonna be lynched by a well-crowded mass of raging Palestinians.

Don’t you dare blaming Israel in the failure of negotiation. After all we are the one who push towards peace and we are the one with the power and the land. But still we offer way too much. Show me one county willing to sacrifice its own capital city. And especially a city like Jerusalem which is the heart and hope of every Jew.

True.

Have you forgot 'Oslo Agreement' ?

which was failed because of the palestines people.

[Egeides]

Oslo agreement wasn't followed by Israel to start with. The traties proposed by the Israeli government? I don't know them that much, all I know is that some said it was not acceptable for the Palestinian side. Can't say, I don't know ebough of it.

I still want my answer to this question asked in the 3 last posts:

Do you believe it is correct to destroy someone's house so that you can take the place, in some cases by declaring it "archeological site" to get it a few months later?

Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system (curfues...) and installing bombs at the Internet provider is against terrorists?

What do you think of the above?

If any of you really want to know what to opposite side is saying, the Bible of the subject is (to my knowledge) Fateful Triangle, from Noam Chomsky.

[leo]

Oslo agreement wasn't followed by Israel to start with. The traties proposed by the Israeli government? I don't know them that much, all I know is that some said it was not acceptable for the Palestinian side. Can't say, I don't know ebough of it.

I still want my answer to this question asked in the 3 last posts:

Do you believe it is correct to destroy someone's house so that you can take the place, in some cases by declaring it "archeological site" to get it a few months later?

If any of you really want to know what to opposite side is saying, the Bible of the subject is (to my knowledge) Fateful Triangle, from Noam Chomsky.

No, I don’t accept it. And I’m strongly suggesting that the people who done it will face a trial. However, I can assure you this is not a thing which is being done on a regular basis. I can go to sleep peacefully and satisfied with my country knowing that most of the people who do such things ARE facing trial. I just want to add something (not justifying the stealing of the land). Most of the countries, when facing a war and having the power, done much more horrible things. Tell me, do u know one war that there wasn’t horrible acts during the fighting in cities? A soldier here can face a trail if he shouted on the wrong person or even if he hit a terrorist( Its cold an excessive use of power- LOL).

But hey, let’s look for a second on the other side. The Palestinians are releasing terrorists who murdered in cold blood hundreds of Israelis. Their own government is a bunch of corrupted terrorists.

[Egeides]

About the land, those who did that did NOT faced trial, even after that some journalists and investigator commented it. It was done more than once and I doubt it gets very often in the Israeli medias (or any other conventional medias for that matter).

About looking on the other side, I see basically the same thing: terror against civilians. Except in lesser quantity since they don't have the same weapons. And all this being a war doesn't excuse Netanyaou or else when they do something: all it does is to say that it's an excess, found on both sides. On Israel's side, it looks like colonialism with excesses, way more than individual exceptional cases. It's done willingly by leaders, and some individuals are comitting even worst excess within the context.

Again,

"Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system (curfues...) is against terrorists?"

Really, I believe it wouldn't be a bad thing to read Fateful Triangle: you'd get a serious understanding of the other side, wether you agree or not. I do the same with Canada here :P

[Mister.G]

Oslo agreement wasn't followed by Israel to start with. The traties proposed by the Israeli government? I don't know them that much, all I know is that some said it was not acceptable for the Palestinian side. Can't say, I don't know ebough of it.

I still want my answer to this question asked in the 3 last posts:

Do you believe it is correct to destroy someone's house so that you can take the place, in some cases by declaring it "archeological site" to get it a few months later?

Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system (curfues...) and installing bombs at the Internet provider is against terrorists?

What do you think of the above?

If any of you really want to know what to opposite side is saying, the Bible of the subject is (to my knowledge) Fateful Triangle, from Noam Chomsky.

About Oslo you should have know much better.About your questions i asnwered you all in my longer post above.Please read it.

About the land, those who did that did NOT faced trial, even after that some journalists and investigator commented it. It was done more than once and I doubt it gets very often in the Israeli medias (or any other conventional medias for that matter).

About looking on the other side, I see basically the same thing: terror against civilians. Except in lesser quantity since they don't have the same weapons. And all this being a war doesn't excuse Netanyaou or else when they do something: all it does is to say that it's an excess, found on both sides. On Israel's side, it looks like colonialism with excesses, way more than individual exceptional cases. It's done willingly by leaders, and some individuals are comitting even worst excess within the context.

Again,

"Would you argue that:

- most that see their houses destroyed are terrorists?

- most that are killed/wounded are terrorists?

- most that are emprisoned without charge are terrorists?

- children that are in prison are terrorists?

- stopping all the school system (curfues...) is against terrorists?"

Really, I believe it wouldn't be a bad thing to read Fateful Triangle: you'd get a serious understanding of the other side, wether you agree or not. I do the same with Canada here :P

Meybe it looks like colonialism but u shouldnt belive because news like the CNN have arabs owners and they want us the jews to look like bad things.

You must know that there are people in the world that hate jews before this fight with the palestines so they use it to make things and chaging them to make us look very bad, for example the case with the israeli police man and the injured guy.

And Again Please Read My Answers Above.

[Noam]

1. Yes, most of the people who got their houses destroyed are terrorists or people who live in the same building with terrorists.

2. Yes, most of the people who were killed/wounded are terrorists. The rest are intelligence misinformation or people who occured, intentionally or accidentally, to be next to the terrorist when the missile hit him.

3. Absolutely. Most of the people who were arrested without a trial are terrorists, and the rest are intelligence misinformation.

4. There are no children in prisons - Unless you count 17 year-olders as 'children'. The Israeli law allows the head of a region to arrest people without trial for a short period only and ONLY if there are proofs that he is an extreme danger to the public. No other case is possible.

5. Curfews are against terrorists. If you were actually following the situation here instead of reading propoganda (or relying on tabloids. salon.com?!), you'd notice that curfews are always removed in relatively quiet periods and put again whenever there are warnings of an intention to blow a bus up or something. Curfews are inhumane but what other option do we have? Just kill them all?

About Camp David - Ehud Barak offered Arafat the entire Gaza strip, 97% of the west bank and east Jerusalem. He was rejected because Arafat wanted the Palestinians to be granted a right to become Isreali citizens (!!!), due to their flight in 1948 from Israeli territory. Obviously Israel cannot and will never agree to that kind of move and Arafat knew that. Since day 1 he has been trying to prevent a peace contract from being signed and he's been doing it extremely successfully.

Edit: Oslo was a contract signed by Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel did its part of it, while by the intelligence we have today, Arafat was doing the exact opposite, supporting terror instead of fighting it.

[leo]

1) yes, or their supporters, or their families. If u want a terrorist to stop one of the best deterrent methods is the family (whether u like it or no I prefer that a building will collapse over countless victims of terror).

2) Yes most of them are terrorists. It was a dirty lie when u said that the terror that used by us is even more than the Palestine use. In fact I don’t see a reason to continue in this conversation. By this words u stop being a neutral and u actually take a side. You have no idea what happens in this country. Did u know we lose every month at least one soldier because the regulations they have to obey in order to avoid innocent Palestinian casualties?

3)Yes, this I can guarantee you. Here in Israel we have rules. And believe it or not we are one of the most democratic countries in the world.

Just another hint for you, Israeli prisons are over-populated. There even cases when terrorists who actually murdered being released much before they should be.

4) The last terror attack in Jerusalem which cost us in 20 Israeli innocent lives was done by a 16 years old Palestinian girl. Plus see the comment above about the over population plus in a country like Israel there is a special sensitivity towards infants and children. If there was such an act u have no idea how many strikes and groups will arise plus see the comment Noam wrote about what children there are being taught from the youngest age.

5) A curfew is one of the best methods against terror. Israel is not shown in a good way in the media. The curfews are making it look even worst. The curfews are decided to be activated by the highest politicians and security staff in Israel, this is not a game or a way for us to laugh on the Palestinians. Btw, if u will look at any statistic it’s been proven that in time when curfews are activated the amount of terror attacks actually decline till almost none.

P.S

While I base my words on the scenes I live and on international media networks you base on an Israeli left-winger extremist?

[Egeides]

Mister.G:

Some people hating Jews doesn't make them wrong or right, it only makes you EXPECT them to be wrong. You still need to show arguments. If they ARE biased, then it'll just be easier to get good arguments. In each wars, there are persons hating others and being mean. It's the case of Jews, but it's also the case of Arabs or anyone else. Conflict = people in the conflict. About Oslo, well I didn't got the time yet, but I still know the other parts which I can discuss. And I don't think my only source is... erm... CNN (Corporate Nationalist Network?) ;D I'm basing myself on what I read, mostly.

Noam:

I'll have to check about Oslo, my knowledge is limited there. About Salon.com, you didn't look well if you thought it was a tabloid: it's a newspaper like many others, and if you believe it's a tabloid then look at the authors (they were from NY Times, Washington post and so on). In fact, some of them quit from N-Y Times because they believed N-Y Times was blocking information saying that everything not in the view of the editor is not done correctly.

leo:

1) I disagree but I'd need to get my book back to go further. But are you supposing that most Palestinians are terrorists but really that the Israeli force is aiming precisely? I believe instead that they have the same moral norms as when they shoot young people on the basis that they are throwing rocks.

2)

I take side? No more than you: of course I have a conclusion to my thinking, what's wrong with that? I just gave you statistics: it was more than twice the death toll on Arab side (but I remember close to 3 times). And this doesn't count destruction, schools stopped and so on, which is alot more important when you have bulldozers, bombs, an army, etc.

3)

TV reports say that some are in prison without trial, lawyer or anything since months. Amnesty International and/or Red Cross said same if I remember right. I found this, showing that there are people detained without trial (after years) and that civilians are killed with little regard:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150692001

I could also add shooting on yound people throwing rocks since it shows an evidence.

And about "They are all against us", well it's no different from any war, and you get more people against your country if your country does worst. Yet, Israel killed even more people that the other side, took some people's houses (to profit of it!) and destroyed alot more. So saying "it's because they killed" can not longer be used only on one side, since they can say the SAME.

Anyone can show http://www.dci-pal.org/prisonweb/briefpage.html wrong? It's not my initial source but it's a start.

PS: International medias: do you mean American medias? Is it as good as CNN?? CNN and others fired some journalists because they disagreed with Bush. They never put everything. And in your daily life, I doubt you are on the Arab side: you MAY have more data, but it wont make you right by default. It'll only make that you'll put out good argument more easily; I get my information from books based on organizations of people living on the field (international reporters...). Who's that "Israeli left-winger extremist"? Calling big names wont make him wrong, but I don't know which person you call like that.

[Noam]

OK, there are 10 17 year-olders arrested in Israel for throwing rocks/Molotov cocktails at soldiers. What's wrong with that? In what do they differ from the 18 and 19 year olders?

And above all - What is your solution?

[Egeides]

Being arrested is one thing, still being in prison long after is a problem... Keeping a child for months (as Western (since when they are Arabs they sometimes are called lyar by default, incapable of integrity)reporters had shown on TV) wasn't the best thing to do.

About a solution, I don't believe I can get anything complete and specific except by very serious study, but in a general way I'd say slowly diminish the attacks on civilians and their property and stop completely taking their houses. Israel doesn't have more right to take Palestinian houses than Palestinian would have the right on Israel's houses.

There are basic things to do that would at least HINT for a better development (which would take a long time, seeing to which extreme it went), like promising no more torture (interrogatory is not torture: torture doesn't mean you get answers since like in Saigon, you always get the answer you want but not necessarily th truth). An acceptance to stop destroying people's property and, when possible but it may be hard, try to bring some exchanges between both communities that are more positive (economic, cultural on BOTH sides, etc.).

When a conflict went to such extremes, you wont help it by simply making worst than your neighbor: except of course if you succede to destroy him completely, which means massacre of everyone and destroying everything that could be used for attack/defense.

[SurlyPIG]

Okay, I can agree with that.

But what exactly is the "cause" that those people said they were supporting? What was the actual poll question?

The cause I refer to is retreiving all of Israeli land exclusively for Palestine.

Of course not! I strongly support the existence of a Jewish state. After all the things the Jewish people went through, it's absolutely clear that they need a homeland to call their own.

But you don't build yourself a homeland by taking a country and driving its former occupants out. The Israelis have driven countless Palestinians out of their lands.

But where would they otherwise go now? Where in the world (literally :)) would they find hospitable land that a nation is willing to give away?

Last time I checked, the Israelis were refusing to allow the Palestinians to establish their own state... That hardly seems "fair" to me.

As I had understood it, Palestine had refused several such offers of a state because accepting such a deal would leave them with no grounds to demand more of Israel.

I completely agree. But how is it the Palestinians' fault that a twisted Austrian madman and his band of lunatics decided to go on a killing spree 60 years ago?

I'm not saying it is. And I'm definately not saying that re-establishing Israel at the expense of Palestinians was a good thing. But the past cannot be unwound, and Israel is there now. If Israel was to leave now for the reason that it was Palestinian land before it was theirs, wouldn't Palestine have to leave for the reason that it was Israeli land before they were there?

Merely using the word "capitalist" is hardly an argument at all, much less an "economic argument".

And don't pretend you're a saint in this matter. You've said things along the lines of "I don't expect a communist like you to understand" numerous times.

In threads about economics! Specifically, the capitalist side thereof. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a far cry from an economic issue.

The reason why I often bring up capitalism and communism is that in most political issues there tend to be certain sides. I always want to make a clear distinction between those sides, and for some reason this tends to irritate people.

Hardly. How would your position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict possibly relate to whether or not you are a communist or capitalist?

[Wolf]

Well, a blue-blooded capitalist might say he is more for the side that would offer him more markets to expand into and to recruit labor for lower wages. I mean, that's the essence of the market-system, i.e. capitalism.

However, I think that most people here are arguing from moral or political grounds, not economic.

[Mister.G]

I just wanted to add that for example countried like France supports the Arbs instead of the Jews because economic interests.So you can listen to their case because they arent objective.

[Noam]

Fancy ideas. What makes you think that when we stop attacking they'll do the same? We've tried that before, in the Oslo agreement era, and what do you know? They didn't stop. Life's hard. Things don't change if you look the other way.