Fed2k Showdown: Religion

[Acriku]

Let's level here everyone. I think religion is bunk, hogwash and useless for mankind. It has played its purpose just as anything else. The inner core of religion is dead, outplayed by science and rationality and lying cold in the battlefield. People just haven't accepted it yet, even to the point of extreme self-delusion where they must reject reality and fall victim to a mental disorder.

And luckily for mankind, more and more people are going down the path to the freedom of religion. Go back to the early 1800s, where religion ruled the world and going against it erupts in violent lashes. Now go to the years of Darwin, releasing his outrageous findings to the religious world. Immediate criticism and violence. Now forward through time to 1990 and 2000. By now, most of the scientists accept the theory of evolution, and more and more evidence has come up for it. Christians have accepted it by the millions, admitting the impossibility for the bible to have all of the answers and to be the complete truth in which it so claims. Many people became deists, still retaining the belief in a god but allowing science to explain the world that it made. I believe that deism is the road to atheism, and it can only be a matter of time. From 1990 to 2000 there was a 110% increase of nonreligious citizens in America, reaching an astounding 27.5 million people. Forward to 2002, and the nonreligious reach an all-time high at 850 million people. _{We are growing...}

Extreme words...perhaps. But I'm pretty confident for a cumulation of reasons that there is no god, no supernatural, and no reason to believe in either one of them. Religious people find their comfort in religion, and in the hope it produces, whereas I find my hope elsewhere. In myself.

You see, we all have this strength that one gets from a religion or an inspiring encounter. Deep inside. All we need to do is bring it out. That's where we come in. Our friends, family, and co-workers can achieve that strength within from eachother, without religion.

Ah, but wait. Without religion? Without religion one becomes immoral, amoral even, savage beasts that roam the land and rape and pillage every town. Wrong! You should get some sun if you agreed with that, it'll be good for the head. Without religion, I can still become as good as possible because that is what keeps societies together - people following the rules.

So, the replacement for religion? Ourselves.

This is open for debate, so in the words of my granny, bring it on.

[Dante]

Religion may be non-sensical but it has it's uses. Just look at how the Bene Gesserit manipulated it. None of them may be true but they do raise morale and confidence, etc. So what if thousands pander to a delusion? It helps them, and allows others to grow stronger.

And as for the supernatural... No comment. I'm wavering on that one.

[Hawat]

Time will tell the truth... Why should i now discuss with you about your statements? Discussing about that topic is like running in a circle. You will state your arguments i will do the same with mine. Both will attack the other'S views... And so on.

Let's just wait and let time pass by. Perhaps one of us will sooner or later find the truth...

[Dude_Doc]

Let's level here everyone. I think religion is bunk, hogwash and useless for mankind. It has played its purpose just as anything else. The inner core of religion is dead, outplayed by science and rationality and lying cold in the battlefield.

Try tell that to Hamas... ;D

People just haven't accepted it yet, even to the point of extreme self-delusion where they must reject reality and fall victim to a mental disorder.

Ever heard the sentence "Mankind is Mad", which points out that there is no "mentally sane" person on the whole planet.

Many people became deists, still retaining the belief in a god but allowing science to explain the world that it made.

And what's wrong with that?

Religious people find their comfort in religion, and in the hope it produces, whereas I find my hope elsewhere. In myself.

Fine. Then let all these people go to church or a mosk and worship whatever they want to worship. What's the problem?

You see, we all have this strength that one gets from a religion or an inspiring encounter. Deep inside. All we need to do is bring it out. That's where we come in. Our friends, family, and co-workers can achieve that strength within from eachother, without religion.

Hmm... what are humans made of? Material. Some cells and atoms combined into the right order, which makes us talk and feel and everything else. Why do we have to care for each other? In the end, we would still not achieve anything.

This is open for debate, so in the words of my granny, bring it on.

Fine. You have told me what you believe, and I have no problem with that, or well, read on to find out if I have... ( :P ).

Firstly, I believe the universe was created somehow. My bets are on the widely accepted "Big Bang" theory. But, prior to the Big Bang, something must've existed, right? You can go back forever in time and discover that everything did start somewhere. This is where science disapears and "fiction", as you could call it, enters. I believe that in order to create something out of nothing, a being or an intelligence of some sort, I like to call it God, created the very beginning.

The question: "Is religion necessary?". Yes, for the time being, I think it is. It brings forth the calm of various people. Spirituality is also theism.

And you can't think in terms like "it did so 100 years ago, it should be banned", because that's like saying "the Germans did that 60 years ago, they shouldn't be allowed to live".

Again, I ask you thin question, since you are so interested in getting rid of religion: What has religion done to you?

[Inoculator9]

I agree, to a certain extent. I think that religion holds humanity back, but as of yet, without it many people could not live well. So, for now, it is essential for some people, but eventually I believe religion will lessen its hold.

[TMA_1]

hmm overblown ego, eh acriku? Why would anybody want to debate you in such a setting? your head has grown too big.

[SurlyPIG]

I concur with Inoc. Religion is the only reason to live well for some people. Many would absolutely crumble without it. But it is fading, slowly, as more people give it up. Let history run its course.

[Acriku]

Religion may be non-sensical but it has it's uses. Just look at how the Bene Gesserit manipulated it. None of them may be true but they do raise morale and confidence, etc. So what if thousands pander to a delusion? It helps them, and allows others to grow stronger.

And as for the supernatural... No comment. I'm wavering on that one.

Uses that could be accomplished by another means, and means that do not come with the dangers religion does. So what if thousands pander to a delusion? I'd be fine if they stuck to their own, or shared their views peacefully. But history has told us many, many times that that's not the way of the religious. No, they must invade our educational system, and force their beliefs on our impressionable children; they must force their extreme morals into the law, people like Rev. Falwell; they must unsensibly wage war against the infidels; they must forcefully change our free country into a god-fearing country, putting god on as many things as possible that we all encounter in our daily lives whether we like it or not; kill their own children because of their beliefs, or themselves; destroy businesses because they don't surrender to their choice of what should be sold; I could go on and on. The evils of religion are great and many, and this is my chance to vent some of the anger I have about it.

Hawat

Time will tell the truth... Why should i now discuss with you about your statements? Discussing about that topic is like running in a circle. You will state your arguments i will do the same with mine. Both will attack the other'S views... And so on.

Atleast speak your mind, even if we don't get anywhere we are already there - enlightenment.

Dude_doc

Try tell that to Hamas...

They are a bit extreme, and probably will hold onto their violent ways until the end.

Ever heard the sentence "Mankind is Mad", which points out that there is no "mentally sane" person on the whole planet.

Only levels of insanity, eh? Makes sense. But then, what level of insanity do the people I talk about seem to be on?

And what's wrong with that?

Nothing at all. Atleast the deists are humble.

Fine. Then let all these people go to church or a mosk and worship whatever they want to worship. What's the problem?

Read above re:Dust.

Why do we have to care for each other? In the end, we would still not achieve anything.

You don't have to care for anybody. There are other ways to bring this strength. Some like poetry, others like writing. Much better than self-delusion I would say, and more humble. Or try out a science category and discover the world! This is what I plan to do with my time.

Firstly, I believe the universe was created somehow. My bets are on the widely accepted "Big Bang" theory. But, prior to the Big Bang, something must've existed, right? You can go back forever in time and discover that everything did start somewhere. This is where science disapears and "fiction", as you could call it, enters. I believe that in order to create something out of nothing, a being or an intelligence of some sort, I like to call it God, created the very beginning.

Spacetime was created with the Big Bang, so in actuality there is no "before", spacetime begins at the Big Bang.

The question: "Is religion necessary?". Yes, for the time being, I think it is. It brings forth the calm of various people. Spirituality is also theism.

Of course. I agree completely. It does take time for things to change, especially with religion's extensive history. I'm in no hurry, but I might as well tell somebody about it.

And you can't think in terms like "it did so 100 years ago, it should be banned", because that's like saying "the Germans did that 60 years ago, they shouldn't be allowed to live".

Dude_doc, they do it now. This isn't some rant on how evil the crusades were, I can base my entire rant on the things that are happening now and it'd be justified.

Again, I ask you thin question, since you are so interested in getting rid of religion: What has religion done to you?

I can thank the LORD that my parents are not religious, but I did go to Sunday School at the local synagogue. The only thing religion did to me personally was telling me lies and expecting me to believe blindly. But what really stirs me is that things are happening that are exponentially worse to other people. Ever hear the term, "You can kick me around all you want, but when you mess with my family you go down!"? Our species is a big family, despite conflicts, and I cannot stand what religion does to people.

Inoculator

I agree, to a certain extent. I think that religion holds humanity back, but as of yet, without it many people could not live well. So, for now, it is essential for some people, but eventually I believe religion will lessen its hold.

ACElethal

I concur with Inoc. Religion is the only reason to live well for some people. Many would absolutely crumble without it. But it is fading, slowly, as more people give it up. Let history run its course.

You both are quite correct, and as I've explained before I am not expecting this to happen overnight, it takes time and will run its course inevitably whether I rant about it or not. Remember, _{we are growing}.

[Dude_Doc]

You don't have to care for anybody. There are other ways to bring this strength. Some like poetry, others like writing. Much better than self-delusion I would say, and more humble. Or try out a science category and discover the world! This is what I plan to do with my time.

But religion brings people together. Just like culture.

Spacetime was created with the Big Bang, so in actuality there is no "before", spacetime begins at the Big Bang.

We don't know that. I even think scientists wouldn't agree with that. You see, everything must have a cause. Just like someone mentioned the "Merovingian Theory", cause and effect. They are both infinite. But, like I said, we don't know.

Dude_doc, they do it now. This isn't some rant on how evil the crusades were, I can base my entire rant on the things that are happening now and it'd be justified.

Some of them still does, yes. But that doesn't mean religion is "bad" in general. Just because bin Laden is a terrorist who claims that everything he does is because God tells him to do, it doesn't have to mean Islam is evil.

I can thank the LORD that my parents are not religious, but I did go to Sunday School at the local synagogue. The only thing religion did to me personally was telling me lies and expecting me to believe blindly. But what really stirs me is that things are happening that are exponentially worse to other people. Ever hear the term, "You can kick me around all you want, but when you mess with my family you go down!"? Our species is a big family, despite conflicts, and I cannot stand what religion does to people.

As I said, some people finds religion satisfying, others don't. Humanity may be a one big family, but we'll never be "the same". It's like trying to force all of humanity to not watch "Pokemon".

[Acriku]

You don't have to care for anybody. There are other ways to bring this strength. Some like poetry, others like writing. Much better than self-delusion I would say, and more humble. Or try out a science category and discover the world! This is what I plan to do with my time.

But religion brings people together. Just like culture.

Only people of the same religion. Look at Israel and Palestine. Yep, religion brings us all together. To kill each other. That's an extreme example, but there are much more ways to "bring us together" as a whole. And the only reason religion brings people together is because they share the same belief - I would like to join people who share the liking of Alan Alda. It's a common trait, not restricted to religion.

Spacetime was created with the Big Bang, so in actuality there is no "before", spacetime begins at the Big Bang.

We don't know that. I even think scientists wouldn't agree with that. You see, everything must have a cause. Just like someone mentioned the "Merovingian Theory", cause and effect. They are both infinite. But, like I said, we don't know.

Spacetime exists. If matter was created from the Big Bang, why not spacetime? And how do you know that everything must have a cause? We haven't seen anything at all close to the creation out of nothing, so we have nothing to base that assertion on. We see changes of previous forms, letters make words make poems for example.

Dude_doc, they do it now. This isn't some rant on how evil the crusades were, I can base my entire rant on the things that are happening now and it'd be justified.

Some of them still does, yes. But that doesn't mean religion is "bad" in general. Just because bin Laden is a terrorist who claims that everything he does is because God tells him to do, it doesn't have to mean Islam is evil.

Many of them still do. Religion is self-delusion that can bring evil through people onto other people. Nothing comes out of religion that is good that can't be given from another source, and a source without the evils brought along with the dangers of religion.

I can thank the LORD that my parents are not religious, but I did go to Sunday School at the local synagogue. The only thing religion did to me personally was telling me lies and expecting me to believe blindly. But what really stirs me is that things are happening that are exponentially worse to other people. Ever hear the term, "You can kick me around all you want, but when you mess with my family you go down!"? Our species is a big family, despite conflicts, and I cannot stand what religion does to people.

As I said, some people finds religion satisfying, others don't. Humanity may be a one big family, but we'll never be "the same". It's like trying to force all of humanity to not watch "Pokemon".

And those some people will fade out, hopefully in the next century. Of course we are not the same, why do we have to be the same?

[Phage]

Acriku I agree largely with your assesment of religion(though I don't think it in any way dead, perhaps starting to die very slowly) and agree with you actively criticizing it. In fact I commend it.

The only small point is the title of this post "Acriku vs all.". Mainly because this turns the discussion from an issue of "true or false" or "X belief vs Y belief" to an "I vs you" or an "us vs them" issue, that's now based more around ego then evidence. I try to avoid this sort of issue because the issue is at this point overly emotional, clouded, counter-productive.

Also some people should keep in the that the issue of whether religion is or is not true is very different then that of whether it's useful. Less you're a radical pragmatist. ;)

This reminds also reminds me of an old Roman saying "Religions are seen by the common man as equally true, by philosophers are equally false and by politicians as equally useful."

This is amusing and in ways I admit religion is useful. But 1) So are secular-rationalistic beliefs. 2) Religion likewise brings harm with it.

Overall though I value truth, honesty, knowledge and rationality, if religion is not true, then nonreligious philosophies should be spread I believe for that reason alone. I'd just rather not have a society built on intentional deception.

[Acriku]

Ok, I can understand that. I was in the heat of the moment, and made that title after I wrote the article. I'll change it, thanks.

[Dude_Doc]

Only people of the same religion. Look at Israel and Palestine. Yep, religion brings us all together. To kill each other. That's an extreme example, but there are much more ways to "bring us together" as a whole. And the only reason religion brings people together is because they share the same belief - I would like to join people who share the liking of Alan Alda. It's a common trait, not restricted to religion.

We all agree that the situation in Israel/Palestine is extreme, yes. But as I said, just because of this situation, does this have to mean Islam and Judaism is evil?

Spacetime exists. If matter was created from the Big Bang, why not spacetime? And how do you know that everything must have a cause? We haven't seen anything at all close to the creation out of nothing, so we have nothing to base that assertion on. We see changes of previous forms, letters make words make poems for example.

I said that if the universe is created out of nothing, it would strike against everything we know in our universe. Everything must have a cause? Yes, it does. Ask any scientist, and he would never agree with that the universe "just happened like that".

This is also a issue. Science will never be able to know what happened. That's why people believe there is a God.

Many of them still do. Religion is self-delusion that can bring evil through people onto other people. Nothing comes out of religion that is good that can't be given from another source, and a source without the evils brought along with the dangers of religion.

The world isn't all about religion. There is companies in our world who cares more about their products than human lives. Now, is that better than people being "crazy"?

And those some people will fade out, hopefully in the next century. Of course we are not the same, why do we have to be the same?

They won't fade out. One or another kind of religion will ALWAYS exist until science explains how the universe came to be.

[Caid Ivik]

Acriku losing control, so trying to make some kind of Summa Atheologiae? Well, someone rename this forum to Dread Legion vol.III: Final Assault ;D

[Timenn]

Why making such a big deal about what others believe? As long as they don't harm others with it, it's right

[Acriku]

Only people of the same religion. Look at Israel and Palestine. Yep, religion brings us all together. To kill each other. That's an extreme example, but there are much more ways to "bring us together" as a whole. And the only reason religion brings people together is because they share the same belief - I would like to join people who share the liking of Alan Alda. It's a common trait, not restricted to religion.

We all agree that the situation in Israel/Palestine is extreme, yes. But as I said, just because of this situation, does this have to mean Islam and Judaism is evil?

Not if you don't think heroine is evil because it gives a good high but also destroys your brain.

Spacetime exists. If matter was created from the Big Bang, why not spacetime? And how do you know that everything must have a cause? We haven't seen anything at all close to the creation out of nothing, so we have nothing to base that assertion on. We see changes of previous forms, letters make words make poems for example.

I said that if the universe is created out of nothing, it would strike against everything we know in our universe. Everything must have a cause? Yes, it does. Ask any scientist, and he would never agree with that the universe "just happened like that".

This is also a issue. Science will never be able to know what happened. That's why people believe there is a God.

I disagree. We don't know if the universe must have a cause because we've never experienced anything created out of nothing, so we have nothing to base that on. Do you understand where I'm coming from? Science is increasing everyday, and I don't think it'll stop for a long time. Will we learn the universe's origins? I don't think it's that farfetched, albeit far from where we are now. And even if we don't find out the very beginnings, if people realize that they shouldn't put god on everything we can't explain then we might get somewhere.

Many of them still do. Religion is self-delusion that can bring evil through people onto other people. Nothing comes out of religion that is good that can't be given from another source, and a source without the evils brought along with the dangers of religion.

The world isn't all about religion. There is companies in our world who cares more about their products than human lives. Now, is that better than people being "crazy"?

If we can take religion out of the picture, then that's one evil less than what we have today. Just because there are other evils in the world, I don't think we should accept any of them.

And those some people will fade out, hopefully in the next century. Of course we are not the same, why do we have to be the same?

They won't fade out. One or another kind of religion will ALWAYS exist until science explains how the universe came to be.

Probably, so we'll have to speed up the science :)

Caid Ivik

Acriku losing control, so trying to make some kind of Summa Atheologiae? Well, someone rename this forum to Dread Legion vol.III: Final Assault

Resistance is irrational and futile ;D

Timenn

Why making such a big deal about what others believe? As long as they don't harm others with it, it's right

But that's just the thing Timenn. Religious poeple do harm others, and that is not right.

[Edric O]

Thank you, Acriku, for proving once and for all that atheism can never bring inner peace...

It seems to me that your hate for religion is consuming you. That's funny... I guess atheism is bad for your health, Acriku...

Tell me, which world outlook is more harmful to the human race? Is it the Christian belief that all human beings are brothers and sisters and that you should love your fellow man as you love yourself? Or is it the infinite ego of the militant atheists, who find strength in themselves and themselves alone, thus singing praises to selfishness?

We Christians have been in a small minority before, Acriku, and we are not afraid of being in that situation again. There is no denying that there are dark times ahead for Humanity: the peak of capitalist and atheist power is fast approaching. But after every night, there comes a new dawn.

[Acriku]

Christianity may speak about being brothers and sisters, but then again we have intolerant verses such as:

2 John 10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

Psalms 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Exodus 12:45

A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. [passover]

Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [israelites]

2 Peter 3:7

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1 John 5:19

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 2:22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Phillipians

2:10

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2:11

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I'm sorry Edric, you can pick and choose what you want to get out of the bible, but Christianity is just another intolerant religion that would separate us more than not. It is violent, and not unlike any other religion.

Thank you, Acriku, for proving once and for all that atheism can never bring inner peace...

I don't understand why everybody else isn't as disturbed by religion as I am. It isn't atheism, it's religion.

Atheism has nothing to do with my "hate for religion", you are assuming atheism is the lack of religion. It is not.

Tell me, which world outlook is more harmful to the human race? Is it the Christian belief that all human beings are brothers and sisters and that you should love your fellow man as you love yourself? Or is it the infinite ego of the militant atheists, who find strength in themselves and themselves alone, thus singing praises to selfishness?

Christian belief, among other beliefs. Politics are evil as well, but we are not talking about that. I don't see how finding strength within myself and others is selfish, that's just bazarre.

[Edric O]

I'm sorry Edric, you can pick and choose what you want to get out of the bible [...]

Isn't that what you just did? You picked a number of verses from widely different parts of the Bible precisely because these individual out of context quotes support your argument!

The funny thing is, this is exactly the type of thing that fundamentalists do...

Christianity is just another intolerant religion that would separate us more than not. It is violent, and not unlike any other religion.

Why are you (an atheist) telling me (a Christian) what I am supposed to believe in? Why do you insist that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one?

My God is a God of love, mercy and compassion. Why won't you accept that instead of trying to push your own version of God onto me?

The problem with religion is not one of the outside world, Acriku. The problem is within you. Religion is what you perceive it to be.

[Acriku]

Isn't that what you just did? You picked a number of verses from widely different parts of the Bible precisely because these individual out of context quotes support your argument!

Only to show the other side of the argument, which you conveniently left out!

Why are you (an atheist) telling me (a Christian) what I am supposed to believe in? Why do you insist that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one?

I have not told you a single thing to believe as a christian. You're getting defensive, Edric. My interpretation of the bible? How many interpretations can you get out of:

2 John 10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

and

Psalms 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

? It's pretty apparent Edric.

My God is a God of love, mercy and compassion. Why won't you accept that instead of trying to push your own version of God onto me?

Then your god is not the same god portrayed in the bible.

Religion is what you perceive it to be.

No amount of altered perception can weed out the evil that religion brings.

[Edric O]

Only to show the other side of the argument, which you conveniently left out!

Oh, you mean the same way you always leave out every single good thing ever preached or done by religion? ::)

I have not told you a single thing to believe as a christian. You're getting defensive, Edric. My interpretation of the bible? How many interpretations can you get out of:

[2 John 10 and Psalms 14:1]

? It's pretty apparent Edric.

Yes, it is. What is NOT so apparent, however, is how exactly are these verses so horribly "intolerant" as you claim them to be. Especially when you consider the context, which makes the ideas expressed in the verses far more reasonable than it may seem by looking at the verses alone.

But while we're at it, how many interpretations can you get out of this, Acriku?

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

- Mark 12:28-31

Then your god is not the same god portrayed in the bible.

No; my God is not the same God that you believe to be potrayed in the Bible.

No amount of altered perception can weed out the evil that religion brings.

The altered perception that I was talking about is yours, Acriku, because it makes you unable to see things in perspective. Religion has inspired people to acts of great evil, but also to many, MANY acts of great good. Atheism, however, has a far bloodier history than religion. Yet you ignore it by saying that atheism is not responsible for the actions of the atheists. Then how is religion responsible for the acts of the religious, especially when those acts go directly against the teachings of their religion?

[Egeides]

Acriku, I'll try another path... My goal isn't really to make you believe, but to make you see what some find in theism, to put out dogmas also.

- Do you believe there is only one "truth"? (for this, take the sentence in the philosophy's logic sense)

- If someone would come and profess something that seems truthful to you, without restriction to freedom, and then would do things humans are not supposed to do, would you believe he may be "affiliated" with something that's not human?

Here, I instaured "would do things humans are not supposed to do" as being true a priori for the argumentation's need. Don't answer me "no religion is like that", it's not my question: answered to what I asked, not some twist of it.

[Acriku]

Oh, you mean the same way you always leave out every single good thing ever preached or done by religion?

And what good things has religion done lately that cannot be achieved in any other way?

Yes, it is. What is NOT so apparent, however, is how exactly are these verses so horribly "intolerant" as you claim them to be. Especially when you consider the context, which makes the ideas expressed in the verses far more reasonable than it may seem by looking at the verses alone.

I have read 5 chapters before the Psalms verse, and 5 chapters after. The meaning does not change in context, as the 10 chapters I have read is all about how god is great, the wicked evil, and asking the great god to save "me" from the evil wicked - "mine enemies". In context, it actually helps my argument. The christian bible acknowledges enemies of the christian believers.

But while we're at it, how many interpretations can you get out of this, Acriku?

Looks like you have some sorting out to do. The christian bible attacks the nonbelievers, calls them enemies that doeth no good, and yet tells you to love thy neighbor as thyself. If I was a christian I'd be asking my pastor this.

but also to many, MANY acts of great good. Atheism, however, has a far bloodier history than religion. Yet you ignore it by saying that atheism is not responsible for the actions of the atheists. Then how is religion responsible for the acts of the religious, especially when those acts go directly against the teachings of their religion?

Acts of great good that can be achieved otherwise, without the evils.

If you are referring to Stalin's acts, this was not an act of atheism. It was in fact an act of instilling order in his communist country. It nothing to do with atheism. It was his communism that made him abolish the churches in his country, because the churches caused disorder in his communist country. I don't know why this isn't hard to understand.

Religion, however, is directly responsible for its contribution to horrid acts that concern religion, such as the crusades. If, however, a religious president sends us to war against the Axis, then I would not blame religion because it does not concern religion. But let that be in another thread! This is not about that! I say right now that this rant can be fully justified by the religious acts committed in this current year and past 3 years. I have posted a small list above, read them if you will.

[Acriku]

- Do you believe there is only one "truth"? (for this, take the sentence in the philosophy's logic sense)

- If someone would come and profess something that seems truthful to you, without restriction to freedom, and then would do things humans are not supposed to do, would you believe he may be "affiliated" with something that's not human?

Is there only one truth? I'd have to say no, since many things are not black and white - right and wrong. I'm not familiar with the philosophy's logic sense, so you may have to clarify.

I'm confused to the second part. Could you clarify with an example?

[TMA_1]

This thread is a perfect example of why I am thinking of tapering my posting here. There are no answers here, but a lot of slandor. Tell you what acriku, if you ever decide to calm down and become civil, then I will respect every word that you type. till then it is kinda hard. Also Edric, you know I totally agree with you, but have you noticed that with every good point you brought up, that it has somehow been tossed aside? there is no magic bullet for a closed mind.