Satan...a decent guy?

[Acriku]

Boy oh boy oh boy.

And why not? Do you have ANOTHER source that potrays satan differently?

Yes: reason.

And let me point out once again that your position is self-contradictory: On the one hand you claim that the Bible is true (satan exists), and on the other hand you say that the very same Bible is in fact full of lies.

The existence of Satan was assumed, outside of the bible. I was playing the devil's advocate against the bible's portrayal of Satan.

Oh, so that's why satan wants to put himself in God's place and have all human souls burning in hell, right? Wow, I can already see the nobility in that...

I never said he was an advocate for humanity, this was purely conscerning the matters up there.

Yes, there is something outside of God's will: EVIL. Hatred, suffering and death. I guess we should be thankful to satan for giving us these wonderful things, eh?

Ah, so cruely drowning millions and millions of all humanity except for one family isn't evil? Under god's will, millions suffered, and were greeted by death. It isn't strictly Satan that there is hatred, suffering, and death.

Evil would still exist (satan), but humans would have no contact with it.

Obviously humans would, if Satan can talk to Eve without god knowing that easily.

LOL. God gives you complete freedom to choose for yourself, and you're still accusing Him of enslaving you? Acriku, God wouldn't be able to please you no matter what He does.

What is this choice everyone is talking about? I'm confused. I don't have the choice Adam and Eve had, that's over and done with. They had their choice, not I. And not enslaving me, enslaving Adam and Eve. If god continues doing what he is doing, he will never please me.

1. Create a perfect world with no evil for us, and constantly use His powers to stop us from corrupting it with evil ourselves.

2. Give us complete and absolute freedom to do ANYTHING we want with no consequences.

I wouldn't want that perfect world under god's slavery, that's the thing. I cherish my mental freedom. And there would be consequences, social consequences.

[nemafakei]

Oh, dear, oh, dear. What a petty, pointless, pedantic, and pathetic argument.

Please give me reasons not to lock this. The first post was mildly humorous. Then to pick it to pieces... no.

[Davidu]

Lock and erase it!

[Acriku]

It'll most likely go nowhere, so no reasons from here. But it is interesting, maybe not-so-much when it's broken apart pixel-by-pixel...

[Egeides]

Acriku, why would it be necessary to take the Bible litterally? Should I also take Orwell's 1984 litterally?? Many things can be explained otherwise than litterally.

And about this choice you say you don't understand:

Let's say some guy takes a hammer and hits his hand. Well he could have decided otherwise and get a different result. Is it God's fault if the poor fellow now has a hand that hurts? No.

Now, let's take this and bring it back in the right context (since the exemple isn't perfect of course). If things were like this also, if things always had consequences (like if you decide to let anger come, etc.), then would it be God's fault or would it be your choice?

I guess it explains what I mean, and hope this NON-LITTERAL allegory will be understood...

[emprworm]

lol, Acriku is still at it with his anti-Christian posts.

i hear the chains clinking. poor acriku, still enslaved. i fear this will last his whole life. he needs a girl, then maybe he wont waste his existence on something he sees as an IPU

[Acriku]

I don't know, ask the fundamentalist christian who does take it literally, and actually believes in it literally.

Now, let's take this and bring it back in the right context (since the exemple isn't perfect of course). If things were like this also, if things always had consequences (like if you decide to let anger come, etc.), then would it be God's fault or would it be your choice?

*glug glug* Sorry, can't talk right now, currently being killed by god in the flood.

But seriously, I am not talking about everyday choices. You are, but that doesn't seem to fit into this discussion. About Adam and Eve's choice, it was the negligence of god that played a part in the "fall". A being who can stop it, but doesn't, is not only negligent but partly responsible for it actually happening.

[Edric O]

But seriously, I am not talking about everyday choices. You are, but that doesn't seem to fit into this discussion. About Adam and Eve's choice, it was the negligence of god that played a part in the "fall". A being who can stop it, but doesn't, is not only negligent but partly responsible for it actually happening.

There you go, using argument #1 again... "God should have stopped evil from happening". Didn't you just say a few minutes ago that God should give us complete freedom and NOT interfere with our choices? Make up your mind.

[Acriku]

I didn't say god should have stopped evil from happening.

And, like always with you Edric, this is offtopic.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Acriku... the only thing that i think you are doing incorrectly is claiming that God didnt know what was going on in certain situations. He perfectly well knew what was going on.... However he was like a father...... asking the children to give them a chance to tell the truth rather than him come out and blame them outright.

You seem to want to defeat and deconstruct God rather than try to understand our epistemeology.

here are some posts from another forum of another man whom i enjoy reading his post i have copied and pasted below..................................

"Some of the content in the Old Testament are stories and have never happened, but have an educational intent. Most of the content is history, and the rest is prophetical, heavily linked to the final chapter of the new Testament. And especially that last part has been "closed": Revelations's meaning has been hidden (and with it parts of the old testament) and is to be disclosed by the Holy Spirit only, which is one of the reasons for the existance of many kinds of Christian believes. Most use a human interpretation of the Bible, ignoring what God intended.

So what you call "vague" is actually "encoded" and can be decoded by accepting God through Jesus after which the Holy Spirit will provide full understanding. "

"It is useless to analyze the Bible as is. No two persons are the same (and never will despite effords in cloning techniques) so no two persons can absorb/understand the same amount. The Bible is a book written to help people with their "quest" to find and accept God, as starting point, reference and knowledge database, for each as their capabilities (talents) allow them to. As I said in the quantum-thread it's not the result that matters, but the effort and determination to accept God for what He is: our father and God."

"I was brought up with Christian believes from my parents. At the age of 11 I decided for myself that this is what I wanted: being a child of God, so I had myself baptised. I changed from that moment on for I could feel His presence the moment I went under (water). I do not believe in baptising young children: how do they know what to choose? For the adult believing may seem as a "psycological construct", it's not for nothing that the Bible states somewhere that in order to gain faith, you need to "be like a child". Adults tend to seek logic in anything, and if there's something not logical, it's (a) God. How to scientifically explain miracles? "

"Learn all but keep what's worthwhile. This is also a phrase from the Bible. Don't think I never made any misstakes, or don't make them anymore. Finding God is a process that may take a lifetime, or only a day. This depends on who you are, where you come from, if you actually learn something during looking etc. It's not science: do this, then that happens. This is what I meant by saying "not everybody is equal". Of course we can learn from eachother, share experiences. Always keep in mind: Learn all but keep what's worthwhile. You will learn what's worthwhile along the way. And indeed, people on the lookout always find something. Those looking to speak to the deceased sometimes get answers, but don't know "that the dead know nothing". The entity answering is always someone you don't want to speak, for the only ones answering are also the ones that want us to stay away from God, and are looking for ways to literally take over a living body (never heard of terrifying experiences of those attending a "seance"?)

But try to find God with logic, and you will fail. The logic comes afterwards, not before."

[Acriku]

There's no indication that god knew what really had happened in that story, to say he did is your interpretation. Which is alright, nothing wrong with that. And if he knew, how did he know? Did he know it before it happened, and if so why didn't he stop it in the first place, keeping in mind he had a huge anger problem when he found that it happened when Adam and Eve told him.

[drahgoon]

god does not stop things from happening. if it happens it was ment to be but dont be care less other wise you time will come before it is supposed to

[Acriku]

Now now draggoon, that doesn't encourage thinking for yourself now does it? ;)

[Edric O]

Yes: reason.

So what is this "reason" you're talking about? A book, maybe? An ancient manuscript? Or a crystal ball, perhaps? ::)

Oh, you mean reason as in LOGIC! Of course, last time I checked we actually used historical sources to find out what happened in the past, but now it seems Acriku has found a revolutionary new way of using "reason" to magically guess all sorts of things of which we had no prior information. ::)

What I'm trying to say, Acriku, is that a process is different from a source of information. Try not to confuse them in the future.

The existence of Satan was assumed, outside of the bible. I was playing the devil's advocate against the bible's portrayal of Satan.

Well, if that isn't the Biblical satan that you're talking about, then you are in fact talking about a completely different entity altogether - an entity of your own imagination, that you just decided to name "satan".

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways: It's either the Biblical satan, or it is NOT satan, but someone else.

I never said he was an advocate for humanity, this was purely conscerning the matters up there.

Alright, let's leave Humanity out of it.

So you're saying that wanting to destroy the one who created you in order to steal his place is a just and noble thing to do?

Ah, so cruely drowning millions and millions of all humanity except for one family isn't evil? Under god's will, millions suffered, and were greeted by death. It isn't strictly Satan that there is hatred, suffering, and death.

Conveniently ignoring the parts that you don't like, eh Acriku? You *accidentaly* forgot to mention that those people were in fact evil and corrupt, and far from "innocent".

Funny, I thought you supported justice...

Obviously humans would, if Satan can talk to Eve without god knowing that easily.

Actually, God knew about it all too well, it's just that he chose not to interfere (therefore doing EXACTLY what you wanted Him to do).

READ the Bible more carefully, Acriku...

What is this choice everyone is talking about? I'm confused. I don't have the choice Adam and Eve had, that's over and done with. They had their choice, not I. And not enslaving me, enslaving Adam and Eve. If god continues doing what he is doing, he will never please me.

1. You have the choice to do whatever you want with your life. And as you can see, you're FREE to slander God as much as you like...

2. Again, you ignore the fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Therefore, they obviously had a choice. Otherwise how could they have disobeyed Him? So if they were free to NOT do what God said, how exactly were they enslaved again? (the same thing applies to you)

And tell me, what exactly SHOULD God do to please Your Divine Majesty, O great Acriku? ::)

I wouldn't want that perfect world under god's slavery, that's the thing. I cherish my mental freedom. And there would be consequences, social consequences.

Oh no you don't. You're not weaseling your way out of this one. I gave you two options. #1 and #2. It's either one or the other. Which one do you support? CHOOSE.

[Edric O]

Did he know it before it happened, and if so why didn't he stop it in the first place [...] ?

I didn't say god should have stopped evil from happening.

Hypocrisy: Priceless

[Egeides]

I don't know, ask the fundamentalist christian who does take it literally, and actually believes in it literally.

Now, let's take this and bring it back in the right context (since the exemple isn't perfect of course). If things were like this also, if things always had consequences (like if you decide to let anger come, etc.), then would it be God's fault or would it be your choice?

*glug glug* Sorry, can't talk right now, currently being killed by god in the flood.

But seriously, I am not talking about everyday choices. You are, but that doesn't seem to fit into this discussion. About Adam and Eve's choice, it was the negligence of god that played a part in the "fall". A being who can stop it, but doesn't, is not only negligent but partly responsible for it actually happening.

Well what it says is that humans are free. Free to do wrong also. In the Bible, God tries to show human the good way. The chose to do something else, simply.

I dunno for fundamentalists, but I guess I would see things differently than they do. To me, Genesis is not to be taken litterally but taking lessons from.

[Acriku]

Oh, you mean reason as in LOGIC

I used reason that because the bible only portrays one side of the story, completely silencing any other perspective of the story, I cannot trust it to be true. There are always two sides to the story, to repeat a saying.

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways: It's either the Biblical satan, or it is NOT satan, but someone else.

Satan, an angel (ArchAngel according to GUNWOUNDS). I am questioning his actions and reasons portrayed in the bible, not Satan himself.

So you're saying that wanting to destroy the one who created you in order to steal his place is a just and noble thing to do?

I was not referring to that when I said he was respectable (note: not noble nor just). I was referring to going against the monopoly bully that is god.

Remember, we don't know if Satan would have make the place better or not. We cannot assume that it would be worse, or better. It is like life down here, countries become conquered, only to be conquered again, and again, and again.

forgot to mention that those people were in fact evil and corrupt, and far from "innocent".

We are evil and corrupt. But is it worth killing everybody save a family (who somehow were not evil and corrupt)? It is massive retaliation, to bring up Eisenhower. Attack me, and we bomb you with nuclear bombs. Go against my word, and I drown you, your father and mother, your friends, your children, and your pets and animal friends.

Actually, God knew about it all too well, it's just that he chose not to interfere (therefore doing EXACTLY what you wanted Him to do).

I read it twice more just now, and I find no indication that god knew about it all too well.

CHOOSE.

Neither. They are your choices, not mine. And I do not agree with either ones.

Hypocrisy: Priceless

Funny, they are not being hypocritical. One asks why he didn't stop it, and another denies me saying god should have stopped evil from happening. Also, they are about two different issues.

[quoudam72]

Now starrng Quondam72 as you guessed it Devil's advocate.

KJV

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as "gods", knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of "us", to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Why would God not want man to know of good and evil? If Adam had known about Satan wouldn't it have made a difference when Eve presented the forbidden fruit to him? If some of you are so blind as to not think any further than what has be presented about this "story" then you will to be "upset" or whatever by Acriku-'s statements.

What a petty, pointless, pedantic, and pathetic argument.

I could not agree more this could have been such a wonderful learning experence but some of you "propellor heads" insist on minute details with such ostentatious conviction that it makes your arguements a game of who can out do who next.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i have put my off topic replies in a new thread

[Edric O]

I used reason that because the bible only portrays one side of the story, completely silencing any other perspective of the story, I cannot trust it to be true. There are always two sides to the story, to repeat a saying.

I'm afraid that is in fact very much illogical. You see, not every story has "two sides". And even if a story does have "two sides", that doesn't mean that the "under priviledged" side is the right one. Let's take WW2 for example. By your logic, we should pay more attention to the nazis' side of the story, which those *evil* allies tried to silence...

See the problem?

Satan, an angel (ArchAngel according to GUNWOUNDS). I am questioning his actions and reasons portrayed in the bible, not Satan himself.

Yes, but you have nothing from the Bible (or anywhere else) to back up your assumptions...

I was not referring to that when I said he was respectable (note: not noble nor just). I was referring to going against the monopoly bully that is god.

And I ask you again: How is going up against an authority figure inherently good?

Remember, we don't know if Satan would have make the place better or not. We cannot assume that it would be worse, or better. It is like life down here, countries become conquered, only to be conquered again, and again, and again.

Hey, we also don't know if Hitler would have made the world better if he had won WW2, right? ::)

We are evil and corrupt. But is it worth killing everybody save a family (who somehow were not evil and corrupt)? It is massive retaliation, to bring up Eisenhower. Attack me, and we bomb you with nuclear bombs. Go against my word, and I drown you, your father and mother, your friends, your children, and your pets and animal friends.

First, keep in mind that there were FAR less people back then than there are now. Second, they were extremely evil and corrupt. Like the nazis, for example. (yes, they DO seem to come up a lot in this argument, don't they?)

I read it twice more just now, and I find no indication that god knew about it all too well.

Yes, you seem to be correct. Strange... I distinctly remember reading that somewhere in Genesis... maybe it was another translation - I'll have to go look for it.

Neither. They are your choices, not mine. And I do not agree with either ones.

Oh, this is interesting! So you DON'T want God to do either of those things to prove Himself to you! I'll just keep this for future reference, if you don't mind...

Funny, they are not being hypocritical. One asks why he didn't stop it, and another denies me saying god should have stopped evil from happening. Also, they are about two different issues.

Well, then you sure did a poor job of explaining what you meant...

Anyway, I'm through with this argument. It's been fun (well, not really ;) ), but I think it has gone far enough. I've made my point, and I don't want to waste any more time on repeating the same things over and over again. So this is my last post in this topic. In the words of Karl Marx:

"Last words are for fools who haven't said enough."

[Miles]

Whether this thread should be locked or not, I don't know. I can tell you, though, that it has inspired some very interesting, and substantial dialogue. I'll tell you why.

First of all, I don't want to speak for Acriku, but I think we are coming at this from the same angle. If I am wrong, please correct me Acriku.

My purpose in participating in this thread was not to pose a valid belief system, but to point out the pitfalls of faith, the intolerances of religion, and the hypocracy of the faithful.

No one here, with the exception of Arohk, recognized the significance of these proposals. Rather, they began vicously attacking them. Why? For the simple reason that they challenged their precious faith with the same reasoning that they use cling to their beliefs. Deep down, they all recognized this, and became very defensive. The hostility shown merely points out that the rationale of the spanish inquisition is still alive and well within the religious community. Even christians are not immune to the fanaticism demonstrated in Islam and the desire to silence heresy.

Pascal's wager-- If we are right and you are wrong, then we will go to heaven for attempting to expose the truth, while christians will go to hell for their blind faith in Satan's word. I hope you all see now how ridiculous this statement is, and maybe a little of where we are coming from.

I also hope you all see just how precarious of a position that your blind faith puts you in. You accept absolutes, and as a result become slaves to those absolutes. If those absolutes are challenged, and you are rattled from your comfortable truth, then you find yourself scrambling to silence those challenges, in some cases very aggressively. This energy of fear and blind faith are what have been used in the past for horrific atrocities--"burn the witch, hang the heretic, kill the infadels, silence the evolutionists--- lock the thread" ;) This is the danger of religion and the shackles that enslave you. Frank Herbert warned of this. What lesson do you think the "missionaria protectiva" is meant to teach you?

I also want to point out that most of you immediately started pointing out the lack of logic and evidence behind these proposals. You used much of the same reasoning that we do for being atheists, yet adamantly criticise us for using. This is utter hypocrasy.

So what is this "reason" you're talking about? A book, maybe? An ancient manuscript? Or a crystal ball, perhaps?

Or a Bible? I hope you see the hypocrasy. :) Case in point.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Miles you are just stammering more cliche' arguments.....

"all christians are hypoctites" is just as cliche' as

"God contradicts himself"

these are the standard cliche' atheist arguments.

You have no knowledge of the bible except for out of context excerpts that you use to try to rattle people from their faith.

And these weak christians are only rattled from their faith because their faith is weak and they themsleves had limited knowledge of the scriptures.

Its the blind arguing with the Blind. Try using your petty atheistic arguments against a well educated christian and watch yourself get put in your place.

Uniformed atheists arguing with uniformed christians

its the funniest thing to watch. usually boils into some petty name calling.

I would like to see atheistic bible scholars versus Theist Bible scholars go head to head.. then you would have real brains battling.

however no atheist is gonna spend his time studying ancient scriptures.. so that is one battle we will never see.

[Acriku]

It wasn't my initial motivation, but it slowly crept to the surface when the reactions kept coming. It's pretty cool when this happens like this.

Good discussion as long as it lasted Edric ;)

GUNWOUNDS, the thing is, not many theists will either.

[Miles]

What Gunwounds? You spit off a post of insults and that makes you the authority? ::)

Refute the "what if's" then if you are the "Biblical scholar" Otherwise, I will lump you in with the other weak faithed christians.

We see the results of this persecution everyday. Biblical "scholars" teaching that evolution is heresy and the work of Satan. Muslims killing infadels in the Jihad, parents warning their kids of the "evils" of heresy from those with different ideals, preachers telling their congreation to follow their truth ro go to hell, evengelists blaming homosexuals for the tragedies of the times, the list goes on and on. Intolerance runs rampant in the religious community.

Realize too, that these "weak faithed christians" represent the masses. They are the true voice of their religion, and are easily influence by those "scholars". It's sad that you find it amusing since these are the ones who will propogate their weakness to the future generations.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Oh my.. you have discovered that there are corrupted christians, evangelists, and scholars... and even preachers....even priests who molest boys..... wow you are soo perceptive :O

What do you want??.. an award?

and due to these bad apples... you would discard the whole notion of a God?.....who is petty now? ;)