A prophet without a God

[TMA_1]

Now, I consider myself pretty fair. I dont insult or offend people who are mature about their debating. as a matter of fact, me and acriku used to have great conversations. not anymore though for obvious reasons. I have noticed that some athiests. not all, just a small minority, seem to almost have a blood feud against religion, christianity especially. I am not just talking about acriku because that will obviously be brought up. I am talking about many people I have met, especially in teh college atmosphere. Why is it that there are those who are so preachy about their athiesm? is it out of bitterness? is it because they are angry at the faith they attack? most of this comes down to a personal problem or understanding obviously, but I wish to be enlightened why a few athiests seem to feel that tehy have to turn everybody else into an athiest. Why some of them wish not only to disprove religion, but wish to destroy it. Why is it that some seem to be prophets of a religion that contains no god?

[SurlyPIG]

Some may have come from an environment where religion was essentially forced on them. I have a couple of friends that grew up in super-religious households, who packed their bags and headed for the hills the moment they finished high school.

Others may have come from open-minded families but perhaps have lived in an area where they are essentially treated like 2nd class trash because of their atheism.

Combine those two together and don't you think it's at least somewhat understandable that they are spiteful towards religion?

This issue has been raised a few times in the last couple of days, and its essentially a similar answer to why missionaries travel to the ends of the Earth to teach people about Christianity or why Mormons spend two years of their lives on mission. Because of what they value.

I don't know if I'm one of the people you are referring to (if you could let me know please to and if so explain how). Personally I value truth, education, progress, which is why I express my opinions on cosmic matters such as religion but I also feel people have the right to live their lives the way they choose in peace and without persecution, so I will only go so far.

[Vanguard3000]

My opinion: Atheism is like any other religion or philosophy in that there will always be those who will try to force their own beliefs upon others, or who will hate beliefs that do not coincide with their own.

[TMA_1]

no no ace, as much as we disagree, I freaking respect you. You are straight on and dont ever bash religion for the sake of bashing it. you put real meaning behind it. and I see where you come from. I as well know some kids who were raised in an ultra fundimentalist household. They just rebelled against it. It makes sense, I would probably do the same.

yeah I totally agree vanguardy. hehe

[Cyborg]

When someone who believes in God ask others to believe, it's not looked on the same way as someone ask people to believe in atheism, in my opinion.

Like "Please turn to God" is not as bad to say as "Please turn away from God".

There aren't a big difference, but the difference is there.

People who are atheists, where I live and as I have experienced, don't attack people who believe in a God of whatever kind it might be(vice versa considering "believers"). However, they are very fast to correct small mistakes in "believer's" sayings and writings, which may cause people to look at them as attackers.

The word "believer's" represent any religion.

[Egeides]

I say like ACE. Plus I add this: they constantly feel bashed by religious people. Here like in many other places. There is anti-atheism from many religious persons as much as there is anti-religion by atheist.

[Acriku]

These threads are great TMA, really awesome!

But seriously, some people can take other's who attack their faith, because their faith is strong and deeply rooted. Those who can't, make topics over and over again, that are desperate to point out that person negatively who attacked their beliefs.

I don't attack people, I attack their beliefs. If someone believed in Zeus, people would attack their beliefs for being illogical, like empr said once, or if someone believed that Jesus was a black person, people would attack that belief for no evidence supporting it, or no conclusive evidence to support it. It isn't evil. It's human nature to expose the truth, or conceal it. I choose to expose it. If you feel attacked, that's your problem.

[TMA_1]

lol nah, you are perfectly comfortable attacking christianity, and if you havent gotten it into your head by now, some people live by christianity. Some people are in christ and consider themselves interconnnected with his plan. you insult the faith, you insult the plan. when you insult the plan, you insult me. its pretty simple. but keep it on track acriku. I dont want this thing veering off the subject.

Yeah I probably tend to agree with you guys on it.

althought I disagree with you cyborg. proclaiming a God or Gods/ Goddess' to somebody is extremely hard, and at this age harder to do. After things like the french and american revolution, secularism has taken over. Secularism in itself is a wonderful thing because it keeps religion away and stops it from growing dangerous. There is also another extreme though. The French Revolution suffered with it. They disbanded any form of religion in france. They took away all holidays and instated new holidays supporting heroes of the revolution. Sometimes secularism cna go to far.

[Cyborg]

althought I disagree with you cyborg. proclaiming a God or Gods/ Goddess' to somebody is extremely hard, and at this age harder to do. After things like the french and american revolution, secularism has taken over. Secularism in itself is a wonderful thing because it keeps religion away and stops it from growing dangerous. There is also another extreme though. The French Revolution suffered with it. They disbanded any form of religion in france. They took away all holidays and instated new holidays supporting heroes of the revolution. Sometimes secularism cna go to far.

Secularism is an ok thing because it keeps religion from growing too large, yes, but that was not my point.

My post was about what I have experienced where I live. And if you read it again, you can see that it's a difference in saying Like "Please turn to God" is not as bad to say as "Please turn away from God". When christians say "Please turn to God", they just ask the atheist if he would like to accept God. However, by saying, "please turn away from God", you are attacking the person who believes in God.

[Acriku]

Our founding fathers knew the importance of secularism in the government, where the wall between church and state is all the most important.

[Apollyon]

I think, TMA, that you yourself are quite aggressive in your faith. If you are secure in your faith there's no reason to feel insulted or for your "Plan" to be insulted. Remember that while atheism is not a religion as such it is a belief just as christianity is a belief.

More on topic perhaps; I think that many atheists feel almost upset that according to their logic, a god cannot exist. Some wish to turn others to this state, perhaps so they might feel comfort. Perhaps some think that they are doing a favour in preaching their lack of faith and merely expelling lies from the mind of the listener.

[Cyborg]

Some, however, are peaceful atheists like me who only answer back if anyone attack me :)

[Apollyon]

Another reason might be that the atheist hopes for a response that can prove to him and his logic that a god can exist.

[nemafakei]

"Why is it that there are those who are so preachy about their athiesm?"

Could it be that they honestly believe that people are wasting their time on religion when they could be helping in far better ways? Could it be that they might simply wish that both sides of the stry be told, so that a fair impression can be given, so that someone's choice between Atheism and Theism can be better informed - since there is institutionalised theism, wchich preaches, and attempts to convert - but no significant body which points out the problems.

[Edric O]

Quite frankly, Nema, I've seen far more atheist preaching than all the different kinds of theist preaching put together. One theist opens his mouth and 10 atheists immediately start bashing the hell out of him. Perhaps providing a counterweight to theist preaching was their original reason, but these days they're going WAY overboard.

I don't attack people, I attack their beliefs.

Maybe you didn't know this, Acriku, but we find it much more offensive when you attack our beliefs than when you attack us personally. You can insult me all you want - I don't care. But when you insult everything I stand for, THEN you offend me.

[Cyborg]

There are fewer atheists than non-atheists on earth.

If I attacked christianity in a worldwide conference, I think I'd have much more people against me, than with me...

*EDIT*-> ::)

[Edric O]

Yes, but there seem to be far more vocal atheists than vocal theists in the western world...

[Cyborg]

Yes, there are more vocal atheists than theists if you look at percentages of their quantity, something which would've been a chaos if it weren't in my opinion.

[TMA_1]

read Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, a classic in english liturature and a great christian book. He talks about how democratic nations will if they are out of line lean towards the minority and push down and brow beat the majority as if they are somehow wrong, but for no purpose.

[Miles]

Yes, but there seem to be far more vocal atheists than vocal theists in the western world...

I don't see any atheist preachers flooding local channels on Sunday. I don't see atheist theme parks, nor do I see atheist cartoons to brainwash kids. I don't hear atheist radio shows (although some probably exist). I don't see atheist missionaries going to other countries attempting to convert masses of people. I haven't seen atheists murder millions in the name of atheism, and I don't see atheists corrupting our school system by banning essential topics from science classes. When we speak it may be loudly, but that is because it takes a loud voice to overcome the unbearable clamour of religious ferver.

As for the original question of why some atheists are so vocal, I have already expressed my reasoning in another thread. Religion represents emprisonment of the human imagination, as best said in Frank Herbert's quote that I posted in the "what's your favorite quote" thread.

"Religion (emulation ofadults by the child) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in the search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity."

--- Bene Gesserit Credo

[Edric O]

I don't see any atheist preachers flooding local channels on Sunday.

No, but I see them flooding every single internet forum I know of, no matter how little the site has to do with religion.

I don't see atheist theme parks, nor do I see atheist cartoons to brainwash kids. I don't hear atheist radio shows (although some probably exist).

You often try to wash all blame from your hands bly claiming that atheism is not a belief system, and that it only represents a lack of belief in any gods.

Well then, your own slippery definition enables me to say that all theme parks and cartoons which show no indication of any belief in God are therefore atheist.

As for radio shows, there's no need to use that argument. There are plenty of rabidly atheist/anti-theist radio shows anyway. The funny thing is that, while religious shows try to do something constructive (regardless of whether you agree with it or not), atheist ones are only out to destroy.

I don't see atheist missionaries going to other countries attempting to convert masses of people.

No, because they're doing that in their OWN countries.

I haven't seen atheists murder millions in the name of atheism

Then let me introduce you to some of your wonderful fellow atheists:

[Miles]

No, but I see them flooding every single internet forum I know of, no matter how little the site has to do with religion.

Flooding? In the sites that I have seen in which they do a religious poll, theists have outnumbered atheists in all except infadels.com. I'm sure that there are other atheistic sites, but would wager that there are many more christian sites. The problem is that to a christian fundamentalist like you, when three atheists speak out against you it seems that they are flooding you and ganging up on you, when in fact they are the minority.

You often try to wash all blame from your hands bly claiming that atheism is not a belief system, and that it only represents a lack of belief in any gods.

Well then, your own slippery definition enables me to say that all theme parks and cartoons which show no indication of any belief in God are therefore atheist.

That may be the weakest argument I have read from you Edric, and that's saying a lot. ;) Christian theme parks spew christian propoganda at it's visitors. The theme of the park is based on christianity. Disney world does not spew out atheistic rhetoric at it's tourists.

As for radio shows, there's no need to use that argument. There are plenty of rabidly atheist/anti-theist radio shows anyway. The funny thing is that, while religious shows try to do something constructive (regardless of whether you agree with it or not), atheist ones are only out to destroy.

Yeah, Christian radio shows are to create and spread lies. Atheistic radio shows are made to destroy those lies and free us from the shackles of religion.

No, because they're doing that in their OWN countries.

I can tell you right now, that the internet is my only exposure to atheistic viewpoints. There are NO shows, NO ads, NO preachers, NO public debate. It is VERY one-sided. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but not here.

Then let me introduce you to some of your wonderful fellow atheists:

Tusche. ;)

However, atheistic ones are much fewer and farther between than theistic ones, But I will grant you that any spiritual ideology can be perverted and dangerous, especially when coupled with political ideology.

[TMA_1]

I will have to totally agree with you on this one miles. This is turning into a great talk. thanks edric,miles, cyborg and all you guys for just talking about this in a good fashion and helpin me out with all this I wanted to know.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Miles i think you meant to say "Touche"

[Acriku]

Many atheists see religion and their superstitions to be rediculous, so it's no wonder that those with the connections will put up a show about what they feel. And I can guarantee you 95% of the talkshows on the radio follow logical constructions and reasoning to explain how rediculous or flawed religions are, none of the hubbaloo you describe. They aren't immature heretics, they are people of logic, reason, and of maturity. Go to www.atheistnetwork.com and listen to that radio station, it hosts a lot of shows and ads and songs, and is the best on the waves in my opinion. It's too bad that part of it is steered to state political opinions (most against the war, go figure :P), but it isn't an atheist-only station, although the show has always something to do with it.

If your beliefs are all you stand for Edric, you may find yourself falling to the ground in the storm of science and logic.

And I thought we discussed that those murderers were not doing it in the name of atheism, but in the name of their political stance, mostly communism? Seems you've forgotten. Oh well, that's why I'm here :)