The rise of solders: lack of skill

[TMA_1]

hmm...

I have thought about something. Hope somebody can correct me on this if need be, but I have seen that a little before and during the reign of Shaddam the Fourth, that he increased the numbers of his sardaukar troops. At the same time though their effectiveness wore off. I think I have a reasoning for this that may be pretty obvious. The increase in numbers decreased the enclusion that these troopers had. Obviously the prison planet would have to of made compramises on the amount of time and amount of training each solder would recieve in order to ship them out faster. This would mean a weaker, and obviously more ineffective solder. anybody agree?

[Acriku]

He probably let a little ease into the requirements, not so strict, and thus didn't weed out so many = higher passing and becoming of sardaukar. If he did it right, it would be an even tradeoff.

[TMA_1]

not exactly, in the universe of Dune, fighting has moved from quantity to quality. Solders fight with skill instead of basic training. The art of war is much more detailed in the fact that the Great Stalemate is in place. Shields changed the face of war. So that is why the sardaukar were so great. They were the highest quality of solders for 10,000 years.

[The_Sadukar]

could it be because that the level of skill had dropped that he incressed the numbers?

[Alexander_Ordos]

But why would you think, that the effectiveness of the Sardaukar had dropped? Well indeed, the Sardaukar had a few devastating defeats at the end of House Corrino's reign, but I think it happened because of stupid strategists, not the Sardaukar training. All the Emperors before Shadamm were perfect warriors and strategist, while Shadamm was the shame of House Corrino, there's no wonder that he brought his mighty Sardaukar to their end... :-

[TMA_1]

Remember that their religion was all but forgotten and they became arrogant of their own strength. The books themselves mention it. Quantity of solders doesnt always mean a lot, especially in the Dune universe.

[Vanguard3000]

I think one of the reasons was that the Sardaukar had no real enemy for so long (due to their undefeated reputation), they became a bit too comfortable with themselves.

[Alexander_Ordos]

Well if we'd take the prequels for seriuosly, bind them to the duniverse, since some of the Dune fans still don't believe in the prequels, - The Sardaukar surely had some exercise in the Spice War... But Vanguard is right - they've become way too much comfortable with themeselves, having everyone fear them and hold them for undefeatable... :-

Yes TMA, the quantity has nearly NO importance in the Duniverse, take Miles Teg while he was defending Duncan and Lucila from the Face Dancers in the forest on Gammu, how many hudreds did he kill? ;)

[Mahdi]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Shadam incrase the number of officers (bashars, bursegs, etc) and not the number of actual soldiers?

[Vanguard3000]

Yes, he did increase the number of higher ranking officers. I think this could have been one example of how he expanded the Sardaukar ranks altogether, though. For example, he tripled the number of officers, while the lower ranking soldiers were increased tenfold. But you could be right, he may have simply made it easier to go up in rank.

[Alexander_Ordos]

Shaddam was increasing his whole Sardaukar, this means both the high and low ranking officers. Again, if believed in prequels, Shaddam increased his army because he feared an uprising after the Spice War...

[exatreide]

Perhaps he was prepareing to avenge his defeat on IX from the atreides, You know more solders to help the Harks take Arrakis? and even after the Harks took it, The emp wasnt stupid he could see what the Freman were doing, Maybe he was trying to get himself prepared for the coming battle.

[TMA_1]

hmm thanks for correcting me on that guys. I also remember something from the prequels that is. It seemed that shaddam had to stretch out his sardaukar. That could have aided in the problem.

[Inoculator9]

I will assume that you are basing this on the Sardaukar's defeat at the hands of the Fremen in the first Dune book.

I would attribute this to the fact that the 10,000,000 million Fremen, all trained for battle of any sort, proved to much for the 50 legions of Sardaukar (1.5 million). The Fremen and Sardaukar were equally matched as individuals because they had endured similar hardships in their lives, the Fremen maybe more so because it was their entire lives, rather then their lives after commiting a crime making them worthy of being plopped on Salusa. The Fremen outnumbered them 7 to 1, making them superior.

[exatreide]

You forget the harks were on the battle of Arakeen to, So it wasnt Just the sadukuar, So it would be a 7 to...1.2....

[TMA_1]

actually I am not basing all of this on the fremen, sardaukar battles.

It mentions in the prequels (though I dont agree with them all the time) that shaddam raided the "illegal" holdings of spice of some great houses. Also, because of the dislike of shaddam, there were also many uprisings. It is stated that shaddam had to sprinkle his sardaukar everywhere. Also, there were more than 50 legions of sardaukar. That was a huge force and took a big chunk out of the total numbers, but the emperor didnt send in the entire force. another thing is that it states in the appendix if I am not mistaken, that the sardaukar under shaddam lost a lot of their fanaticism. It states that their religion was disbanded and that they lost their relationship with strong strong belief.

[exatreide]

Acutlly It was only 50 legions.....

Dont you reamber in the movie?

SEND 50 LEGIONS OF SADAUKAR TO ARRACKS AT ONE!-Shaddam

But my Lord thats all of are forces, INCLUDING are reserves.-

[Vanguard3000]

Yeah, but that's the movie, and the quote goes as follows:

Shaddam: "Send fifty legions to Arrakis at once."

Burseg: "Fifty legions? Sire, that's our entire reserves as well."

Shaddam: "This is genocide - the systemacic and immediate destruction of ALL life on Arrakis!"

;)

[Alexander_Ordos]

Even though outnumbered, The Sardaukar could really do better if not the stupidity of their Emperor, I mean they haven't even brought any Machines with them, no Ornibombers, no nothing >:(

[Colonel_Worf]

Acutlly It was only 50 legions.....

Dont you reamber in the movie?

SEND 50 LEGIONS OF SADAUKAR TO ARRACKS AT ONE!-Shaddam

But my Lord thats all of are forces, INCLUDING are reserves.-

The movie doesn't count. I still refuse to believe it exists. :D

[Inoculator9]

Well, the Sardaukar were sprinkled everywhere, but that didn't make them any less affective.

Even if the Harkonnen were present, they could only have had a max of 5 legions (MAX). Because in the books it is said that the power of the Emperor, militarily speaking, is equal to that of the combined Landsraad.

[exatreide]

Huh? whare did you get that, I dont think it means the actual number of solders but the skill of the solders, The sadaukar at there peak could have handled 10 conscripts. 1 to 10.

that dosnt mean the Harks didnt have 40 million solders, It just means that the Sadukuar equel 10 military conscripts. it has nothing to do with number of forces

[Inoculator9]

The Harks did not have 40 million, because by your logic that would mean that the Sardaukar had 4 million opposed to the actual 1.5. Numbers on Arrakis did matter. The Fremen were superior fighters to them, especially on their home planet. The Sardaukar and Harkonnen's only chance would to have been to overcome the Fremen with shear force of numbers.

[exatreide]

lol i know that silly, but i was just using a example, that they ment skill not numbers.

[TMA_1]

even though their were more than 50 legions of sardaukar, how do you know that each legion was our idea of the roman standard? how do you know it couldnt be 20 or 30 thousand?