Iraq Issues

[zamboe]

POETIC LICENCE: US intelligence hoax hits the fan

Quotes from the article.

Reporter:

[SurlyPIG]

I still have my question unanswered.

Perhaps is because the answer would prove me right.

Am I on your block list or are you just ignoring me? (or do you not understand me?)

[Birdfolly]

On the subject of alleged war crimes by the US soldiers in Iraq:

US Soldiers Kill 3 Teens

US Faces Growing Charges of War Crimes

Jennings said that at least one Marine battalion commander admitted as much to 'Time' magazine when he said -- after the killing by his unit of nearly 100 Iraqis without an injury to his men -- ''Let's quit pussyfooting, and call it what it is. It's murder, it's slaughter.''

[SurlyPIG]

Your second link doesn't work. And next time why not take the story from something other than a progressive opinion site.

[Gobalopper]

Nothing like a little bit of Rush Limbaugh to straighten things out. ;)

WMDs Only ONE Reason for War

If Bush, Powell & Rumsfeld "Lied" on WMD, So Did the UN, EU & Clinton

Maybe Iraq and Saddam Were Totally Made Up!

[Nyarlathotep]

I will not say all that's said in the world (either positive or negative) is true, but rumors always have something true in them...

1) There had to be something done about Saddam.

2) Saddam was a threat to neighbouring countries.

3) War was decided to be the way to stop the Iraqi threat.

The above 3 points are facts, I don't think anyone will deny that. Now the package in the way they were brought forward is questionable though. One person says this, another says that and you have your rumors.

Point 3 is currently the hottest topic, in affect to the reasons. I already told a story earlier about an interview I saw on TV with a former CIA agent who had quit his job, due to the fact that their findings on Iraq were ignored (the official report stated that no war against Iraq could be justified) and Bush' administration requested a report that would state a war against Iraq would be justified. I also told that I searched heaven and earth for that interview on the net, but couldn't find it.

Let's assume that what I just said is a rumor. A part of that rumor would be true. What ever way you look at it, someone screwed up and lies were told.

Most importantly:

I believe us "simple" folks will never know the exact truth or what happened. Things are way to complicated and to much is at stake. I also believe this whole discussion about Iraq will never end for the simple reason that none of us is actually listening to the other person. We also have a part of ourselfs that is convinced we are right, therefore a fault can never be admitted.

[zamboe]

Best article about this particular matter I've read so far.

WEAPONS OF MASS DISSAPEARANCE

Quotes from the article.

" After dispatching dozens of G.I. patrols to some 300 suspected WMD sites in Iraq over the past two months, only to come up empty-handed, the Pentagon announced last week that it will shift from hunting for banned weapons to hunting for documents and people who might be able to say where banned weapons are

[Gobalopper]

I linked to that on Sunday zamboe. :)

[zamboe]

Shame on me :-

I had this article on my email since some days ago as I get TIMES articles by email, I read it just today, I'd forgotten you posted that, anyway I read only some of the links posted, sometimes there is just too many links ;).

[zamboe]

'The truth is, nobody believes a word now the PM says'

[Dude_Doc]

At least they got their freedom. That's one thing to be happy about.

[SurlyPIG]

EDIT : On second thought, I'm going to make a new topic about this...

[zamboe]

At least they got their freedom. That's one thing to be happy about.

I doubt they are happy at this time.

It looks to me more like a dictatorship swap, rather than a liberation of any kind.

[SurlyPIG]

I doubt they are happy at this time.

It looks to me more like a dictatorship swap, rather than a liberation of any kind.

You guys should really start reading Gob's links. They aren't happy? Hmm this guy doesn't think so, and unlike yourself, he's actually in Iraq. ;)

[Birdfolly]

Your second link doesn't work. And next time why not take the story from something other than a progressive opinion site.

Here's the link again. Sorry about the progressive site but most conservatives don't want to write articles about this stuff. It's sourced just like any other article. I guess the to you the New York Times is unbiased and the Rush was ok with you?

US Faces Growing Charges of War Crimes

[Egeides]

Apparently the Iraqi do not appreciate US presence and some are attacking violently:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/06/05/wounded/index.html

[Gobalopper]

Why is that suprising Egeides? Iraq is similar to post-war Germany, not everyone is going to be happy Saddam is gone. Those that were paid well and supported him aren't going to like it. Those who hate America or are influenced by Iran aren't going to like it. Things like that shouldn't be surprising.

[Birdfolly]

Why is that suprising Egeides? Iraq is similar to post-war Germany, not everyone is going to be happy Saddam is gone. Those that were paid well and supported him aren't going to like it. Those who hate America or are influenced by Iran aren't going to like it. Things like that shouldn't be surprising.

Those who thought they might actually have a chance to control their own country and resources aren't going to like it either. Eg never said he was surprised and neither am I.

[Egeides]

Sorry Gob, from what I've seen yet their posters are saying stuff like "Bye bye Saddam, BYE BYE BUSH".

[zamboe]

Defense Analysts Had No Hard Evidence on Iraqi Weapons

Quote,

"The U.S. Defense Department has confirmed that its own analysts reported last year that they had no reliable information that Iraq had chemical weapons. "

[Egeides]

LOL

It's getting even more silly than it showed. But don't worry, they really wanna find something...

[SurlyPIG]

Excellent examples of biased media actively and directly seeking out scarce stories of human trajedy, going against the true, overal atmosphere of the things they are supposed to be covering in order to attract viewers, increase ratings, and thus gain sponsors. Bird and Egedeis have done an excellent job of revealing the overall inevitability of left-winged corporate media, but isn't that a little off topic in the Iraq thread?

[zamboe]

Why isn't a left-winged media correct ?.

In fact I'd believe more in them rather than media sponsored by companies that smell like oil.

Is not what the media say what cares, is what you can conclude from that information, your own opinion, but coming here and discarding other sources just because you don't agree with them doesn't improve your view.

[zamboe]

I strongly agree on what we disagree.

Was the Intelligence Cooked?

Quote,

" ...they have found plenty of proof that Iraq suffered under a brutal dictator who slaughtered thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of his own people, and that is reason enough to justify the invasion. We disagree. We are as pleased as anyone to see Saddam Hussein removed from power, but the United States cannot now simply erase from the record the Bush administration's dire warnings about the Iraqi weapons threat.. "

"The issue goes to the heart of American leadership. Mr. Bush's belief that the United States has the right to use force against nations that it believes may threaten American security is based on the assumption that Washington can make accurate judgments about how serious such a danger is. If the intelligence is wrong, or the government distorts it, the United States will squander its credibility. Even worse, it will lose the ability to rally the world, and the American people, to the defense of the country when real threats materialize. "

[zamboe]

Is lying about the reason for a war an impeachable offense?

Quote,

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

United Nations address, September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio address, October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio speech, October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the nation, March 17, 2003

"

"This administration may be due for a scandal. While Bush narrowly escaped being dragged into Enron, which was not, in any event, his doing. But the war in Iraq is all Bush's doing, and it is appropriate that he be held accountable.

To put it bluntly, if Bush has taken Congress and the nation into war based on bogus information, he is cooked. Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be "a high crime" under the Constitution's impeachment clause.

"

At least we can hope that justice can be applied on Bush too.