Iraq Issues

[emprworm]

In that post I also requested Emp to quit his anti EU bigotry, and then he replied something with how whiteys should shut up 'cause their opinions aren't important. That was about it.

its not anti EU bigotry-- i said AMERICAN/euro pro-slavery. I didn't single out EUrope. What i see is the same thing we saw in 1830. White man forcing another race into servitude and slavery. A slave wants to be set free and what you basically have is white man trying to force them to continue to exist as slaves.

[emprworm]

[offtopic]It didn't take a hundred years to end slavery, it took a war that lasted 1861-1865 and on June 4 1865 slavery was ended, and not entirely free till one year later roughly. [/offtopic]

i don't start the "ending of slavery" in 1861. I am talking the world wide slave trade from the time the first laws were passed to the time the last slave was set free. In America alone, it took more than 150 years. There is a nice slave timeline here:

http://www.goerie.com/nie_civilrights/civil_rights_timeline__1619_-_.html

the first law was passed by Pennselvania in 1712 abolishing the slave trade. The last slaves were set free in Texas in 1865. That is far longer than a piddly 4 years. And I'm not even taking into account Europe. I do not know the timeline overthere.

But back on topic: I see 2003 as the exact same thing. World wide support of forced slavery and servitude by (what I perceive) as mostly white man. White caucasion americans and Europeans/european settlers forcing a race of people into servitude and slavery. These white men are actively trying to stop the freeing of slaves. ALl nicely masked in 21st century terminology, of course. But once you strip it down, take off all the 21st century fluff, all I see is a white plantation owner.

[Miles]

uh... emprworm, I agree with a lot of your comments, but on this issue of "whitey", I really can't follow you. "whitey" is also trying to free those slaves in Irag (being the pro-war camp) I really don't see how racism is behind even the anti-war camp either. Your problem is that you are trying to lump all caucasians into one group. There is a wide variety of opinions withing the caucasian population.

I agree with you though that we need to liberate the people of Iraq (being one of those whiteys on the other side) I think we have a moral responsibility to help those that cannot help themselves out from under an opressive government.

I saw a show two nights ago on the economic forum in which they had about 10 representatives from different political parties from Iraq. The Kurds, Shiites, among others were represented. They seemed excited about the possibility of a unified Iraq under their own democratic government. They accepted that U.S. occupation would probably have to be in place for about 2 years after the invasion. Then the U.S. steps out and they take over for themselves. It sounded to me like these people want to be liberated.

[emprworm]

sorry miles, i didn't mean to imply that all whites are trying to oppress enslaved people. remember that the primary group of people that ended slavery were white quakers. So it was whites that propogated slavery. And whites that ended it. HEre we have a similar thing- white oppression. A bunch of whiteys trying to stop the liberation of slaves. Yes, it is white people trying to liberate the slaves - just like it was whites that liberated them last time. so I apologize if i gave the impression that it was all whites.

[Anathema]

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[emprworm]

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please try to stay on topic, Earthnuker. If you have an offtopic meaningless remark to me to make, please consider posting it in one of the two anti-emprworm threads. thanks.

[Anathema]

Hey, he actually read it. lol

[Acriku]

Finally empr sees his contradiction, even though I explained it thoroughly...

The thing is, it isn't just white people, so drop it. You sound like a guy I saw at the corner saying All Mexicans Are Taking My Job! of course he was unemployed at the moment.

[emprworm]

Finally empr sees his contradiction, even though I explained it thoroughly...

The thing is, it isn't just white people, so drop it. You sound like a guy I saw at the corner saying All Mexicans Are Taking My Job! of course he was unemployed at the moment.

but it was never a contradiction, Acriku.

Historical Fact #1: White man oppressed black man into slavery

Historical Fact #2: White man freed black man from slavery.

they are not contradictions. simple facts.

Now fast forward 200 years.

#1. White man oppresses Iraqi's into slavery

#2. White man wants to free Iraqi's from slavery.

[Acriku]

It was your generalization that was contradicting, and ignorant as well. The white man isn't doing anything, certain individuals are doing something, and not slavery, and they may happen to be white, black, brown, or yellow or red or purple. I thought we ended prejudice a while ago. Guess we still have ignorant people in this world.

[zamboe]

The thing is, it isn't just white people, so drop it. You sound like a guy I saw at the corner saying All Mexicans Are Taking My Job! of course he was unemployed at the moment.

ROFL.

This is the same guy (acriku) that wants all the inmigrants that are trying to cross the border (US-Mx) to be shoot and kill on the spot in order to prevent terrorist atacks !. (Just the posibility that they (inmigrants) might have been bringing some drugs is enough reason for him to kill those people without any delay, the faster the better !!!, fyi, most of the inmigrants bring nothing at all). Racist is not even enough to describe you, I wonder if there is such a word , I'll have to ask.

[Acriku]

This is entirely different, this is not about people breaking extreme laws and especially in these situations of terrorism, this is different. I don't say all mexicans, my best friends are mexican, black, Filipino (best friend), and white, and even an albino. So no I am not racist, I am against immigrants breaking the law getting into this country illegally.

[emprworm]

The thing is, it isn't just white people, so drop it. You sound like a guy I saw at the corner saying All Mexicans Are Taking My Job! of course he was unemployed at the moment.

ROFL.

This is the same guy (acriku) that wants all the inmigrants that are trying to cross the border (US-Mx) to be shoot and kill on the spot in order to prevent terrorist atacks !. (Just the posibility that they (inmigrants) might have been bringing some drugs is enough reason for him to kill those people without any delay, the faster the better !!!, fyi, most of the inmigrants bring nothing at all). Racist is not even enough to describe you, I wonder if there is such a word , I'll have to ask.

i think he just disagrees with me no matter what, even at the expense of this kind of contradiction. its a personal thing, I think. But aside from that it is his right to disagree with me on whatever he wants.

but regarding Iraq, here we have people trying to free slaves. And others trying to keep slaves in slavery.

[Acriku]

What is my contradiction now? I explained it, you may not have read it -

This is entirely different, this is not about people breaking extreme laws and especially in these situations of terrorism, this is different. I don't say all mexicans, my best friends are mexican, black, Filipino (best friend), and white, and even an albino. So no I am not racist, I am against immigrants breaking the law getting into this country illegally.

Besides, I do believe you were against immigrants breaking the law getting into this country illegally as well.

What slaves? There are no slaves, there are oppressed people, but not slaves. You are putting in a term that brings up people's emotions and sympathy just to get them on your side, well that is cheap.

[emprworm]

What slaves? There are no slaves, there are oppressed people, but not slaves. You are putting in a term that brings up people's emotions and sympathy just to get them on your side, well that is cheap.

of course they are slaves. what is a slave, Acriku?

have you considered asking the 30,000 Iraqi refugees whether they lived in slavery or not? Why dont you find out what they have to say. Then tell me the definition of a slave.

[Acriku]

Slaves are oppressed people who are forced to labor without any retribution, and often treated violently.

[emprworm]

Slaves are oppressed people who are forced to labor without any retribution, and often treated violently.

that is the definition of slave?

so these are not slaves:

An oppressed person who is not forced to labor, and is often treated violently.

An oppresed person who is forced to labor, and is not treated violently

how about those?

What about this:

A person who is under full servitude and submission to the whims of someone else- having no religious or personal freedom, whos existence and life belong fully to someone else.

[Acriku]

The "and often treated violently" was an observation, not required to be a slave - noted by the "often" not "always." I thought that would be obvious, but oh well.

And of course there are different defintions of slave, like "I am a slave to your music, sir!" or "With all of this hard work, I'm a slave to this company!" But being in America, with certain past histories, I am inclined to choose my definition first.

Now prove the Iraqi are under full servitude and submission.

[emprworm]

The "and often treated violently" was an observation, not required to be a slave - noted by the "often" not "always." I thought that would be obvious, but oh well.

And of course there are different defintions of slave, like "I am a slave to your music, sir!" or "With all of this hard work, I'm a slave to this company!" But being in America, with certain past histories, I am inclined to choose my definition first.

Now prove the Iraqi are under full servitude and submission.

huh? being a "slave" to music is a figure of speech, Acriku. I'm not talking about some figure of speech. I'm talking about human beings who actually are slaves.

[Acriku]

huh? being a "slave" to music is a figure of speech, Acriku. I'm not talking about some figure of speech. I'm talking about human beings who actually are slaves.

How about replying to my post and not to the semantics of my examples?

[emprworm]

uhhh...ok. You said different definitions to the word slave.

I'll use the exact same definition of slave as was applicable to blacks in 1820.

Main Entry: 1slave

Pronunciation: 'slAv

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe

Date: 14th century

1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

FYI: chattel means property.

THis is the definition of slavery I am talking about. It defines both Iraqi's in Iraq and blacks in 1820.

[Acriku]

You do know that there were quite a few not-so-violent slave owners that only used them for labor without retribution and had freedoms such as going to the local danceroom to dance and a church to pray, thus throwing out your definition. The two situations are not alike, so don't treat them like analogies.

[emprworm]

You do know that there were quite a few not-so-violent slave owners that only used them for labor without retribution and had freedoms such as going to the local danceroom to dance and a church to pray, thus throwing out your definition. The two situations are not alike, so don't treat them like analogies.

if you said that to an audience of black people you'd be thrown out on your face eating pavement. That is an immense insult to any black person. You think that just because they might not have had a whip on their back 12 times a day that their forced servitude was somehow desirable or morally better? They are exactly alike!

Slavery IS slavery. Whether or not the master CHOOSES to beat his slaves does not change the fact that the slave IS a slave.

[Acriku]

*muffle-muffle* What's that Acriku? Oh my word you have words in your mouth!

I was only pointing out that some slaves were not completely subservient, but still were slaves.

[emprworm]

Acriku you said that "SLAVEOWNERS"....."USED THEM"...(does it really matter what they were used for?)

and then said the two situations were not alike.

I'm telling you they are EXACTLY alike.

Your argument is taking the premise that slavery itself is neutral, but only becomes right or wrong depending upon what the master commands of the slave.

This is abbhorent in my opinion. Slavery itself is EVIL, regardless of what the master "uses them" for.