Iraq Issues

[emprworm]

how you act and carry yourself is not off topic. I cannot make a topic on telling you to be considerate. I am a moderator in the Duniverse forum. I like to think that people respect me. I cannot say that for sure. I tell you this stuff because you need to hear it. It is perfectly on topic. Grow up.

another personal jab, and another off topic post. can you let go of these red-herrings and make a relevant post please? I'd like to not deal with this. LEts talk about IRAQ and not this personal irrelevant material. Allright?

[TMA_1]

the problem is, idealism carries too far. The fact that we as americans force police actions all over the world is hypocritical to our whole reasoning of attacking iraq. It is like one man doing evil against another man doing evil.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

[Gobalopper]

Guys this thread is about Iraq not personal issues between yourselves.

[TMA_1]

true. sorry gob. I just got so angry! lol

shazbot... I really should control myself better. Im better than that. sorry guys.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay back to the issue. America cannot destroy tyranny by being tyrannical. It just destroys the moral purpose behind the whole issue. We would become just as bad as iraq.

[emprworm]

Guys this thread is about Iraq not personal issues between yourselves.

thank you.

now I see nothing evil about freeing slaves. When people rose up to free the slaves in the 19th century, blood was spilt. That was not two wrongs. That was a right conqeruing a wrong and the end result being a right.

there is no difference today with Iraq.

[TMA_1]

yes there is. We were fighting against a rebel faction that had the soul purpose of keeping slaves just for money. We had to fight to keep the country together. It was our business.

We are now forcing issues on iraq that is an international affair. That has nothing to do with us. We are also acting in a tyrannical fashion. We are not only fighting unreasonably, but immorally.

[emprworm]

yes there is. We were fighting against a rebel faction that had the soul purpose of keeping slaves just for money. We had to fight to keep the country together. It was our business.

We are now forcing issues on iraq that is an international affair. That has nothing to do with us. We are also acting in a tyrannical fashion. We are not only fighting unreasonably, but immorally.

slavery was not just our business. slavery was worldwide. and it was fought world wide and forced to stop world wide. there is nothing evil about fighting to free slaves. if you do not lend a hand to the helpless and the oppressed, what will God think?

Whenever you fight for the oppressed, blood will be spilled. That is the price for freedom. It is not a wrong, It is always right. And it is of God.

[Gobalopper]

Jacques Chirac & Saddam Hussein Are Longtime Friends & Allies

Operation KFC

[TMA_1]

hmmm that is why I said empr, that we are fighting in the wrong. an evil against evil.

Slavery was not fought world wide at that time. European countries stopped the trade long after the civil war. Its just that many of them profited from our slaves because of the demand on cotton. It was strictly an american war.

Internationalism is strictly forbidden in the bible. The tower of babel was done for this purpose. God seperated the peoples in order that they wouldnt homogenize and unify. Unification breeded with evil will created horrible things.

[Gobalopper]

I can't remember where I read it now but Saddam was attempting to rebuild the tower of babel at one point.

[TMA_1]

yes he did. Kinda creepy and ironic that nimrod was one of the most evil rulers of all time, same with saddam.

[emprworm]

Slavery was not fought world wide at that time. European countries stopped the trade long after the civil war. Its just that many of them profited from our slaves because of the demand on cotton. It was strictly an american war.

what are you trying to say here? That the fight against slavery was wrong? Unlessed I missed something, the slaves were not americans! Why this kind of blind patriotism? When does helping people depend upon a line drawn on a map? We are called the human race. If I am standing near the border of Country A and a man is beating and raping a child in Country B 5 feet away from me, don't think for a second I'm going to sit around just cuz on a piece of paper there is a little black line that says "BORDER".

Morality is not restricted to lines drawn on a piece of paper. Did GOD make countries, TMA? Was it GOD who drew out the shape of Iraq on a map? When you look at the earth from space, do you see any lines? Did GOD take a piece of paper and say "See this line? This is the Canadian Border" You are called to help the oppressed and the downtrodden. A country border is irrelevant. Freedoms price is blood. That is a price that is not evil, but when it is obtained, it is right. What is right IS right. A line drawn on a map means nothing to God. It is just a stupid line drawn by men to justify their cruelty and apathy towards the oppression and evil committed by other men in other lines. But this I know: the price for freedom is blood. And it is a worthy price that all free men have paid. Your freedom was bought with blood. And it was not wrong.

If morality for you stops at a line on a map, then so be it. Not for me. And thank God not for the coalition.

[TMA_1]

God clearly defined nationalism. We made national boundaries. It was our business during the civil war, but this is another nation that is independant from us. No allies are being injured. If they did then we could attack and should. Not now though. The slaves were americans because by that time they were 3rd and 4th generation africans on america. Slavery was evil obviously. We took it out too which is wonderful. It was within our boundaries though and it had to do with us as a nation, morally, economically, spiritually, and physically. No other nation fought with us like during our other wars. Strictly us. Of course there were hired mercinaries from other nations. That clearly has nothing to do with international affairs though. Mercinaries are in it for the cash.

[Acriku]

The supplies and men from France and Great Britain during the war to help the south greatly extended the war. So they had a considerable effect on the war.

[emprworm]

God clearly defined nationalism. We made national boundaries. It was our business during the civil war, but this is another nation that is independant from us. No allies are being injured. If they did then we could attack and should. Not now though. The slaves were americans because by that time they were 3rd and 4th generation africans on america. Slavery was evil obviously. We took it out too which is wonderful. It was within our boundaries though and it had to do with us as a nation, morally, economically, spiritually, and physically. No other nation fought with us like during our other wars. Strictly us. Of course there were hired mercinaries from other nations. That clearly has nothing to do with international affairs though. Mercinaries are in it for the cash.

there you go with this "nationalism" stuff again. We weren't even a nation and we were using slaves. God did not look at the earth and see a bunch of lines and nations using slaves...he saw HUMANS enslaving HUMANS. This is not some "american" issue. National boundaries are irrelevant to what is right and wrong. This world will never progress when people keep thinking in terms of man-made lines on a map. That is really sad. When God looks at planet earth- it is the view you get from space. No lines....no borders...just land, sky, sea, plants, animals, and people.

when a group of powerful people are all balled up in one area....who sit around while another group of people suffer under evil tyranny....God sees no line. He sees no black and white little line. He sees a group of people who invent a line to give them an excuse not to give a cup of water to a thirsty child. He sees 1st world free white men who play computer games, enjoying lifes luxuries not lending a hand to the struggle of the least of these. Those who don't even have freedom- the most basic human right of all. The one right that ALL should have....the one right that TRANSCENDS imaginary man-made lines on a sheet of paper...the one right that MUST be fought for and defended....with the price of blood.

I wish...I just wish that you would bump into an Iraqi american sometime for an eye opening view of shat it is like not to have freedom. Because I truly believe you have no idea what it is like.

Those who have more, more will be required from them.

Those who have the ability to help the helpless and do not......

God sees no lines drawn upon the earth.

[TMA_1]

Good point acriku, I forgot about that. Still though, it was within our boundaries and was a war strictly for americans. Though others had monitary interest.

God does not see boarders. He did though make divine institutions for humankind so that they would not succumb to evil too easily. Like I said, the tower of babel incident. Globalism is evil because it focus' mans evil into one central path. That is why the dictator of the revived roman empire will try to focus all of man together. Evil people cannot create a unified global nation. It is impossible as well as immoral. I do know two iraqi americans. I also know pakistani americans, iranian americans, afghani americans, palistinian americans, israeli americans. I know somebody from almost every middle eastern country. They understand though that it isnt america's place to do stuff about it.

[emprworm]

freedom for all humans is not globalism. i cannot believe you would equate those.

Right and wrong are not globalism. Raping and killing a child is wrong in any country. Standing by while a whole race of people are enslaved and doing nothing when you can stop it is not globalism, it is simply immoral. There are no borders on this planet but for the inventions of humans. Freedom is not a right that is contained within a line drawn on a map. Freedom is a right for all people... all people on this earth...all of them have the fundamental right to freedom. this is not globalism. this is called being a human being. And another part about being a human being is helping those who are weak and not ignoring their cries for help. When a child cries, there are no borders in God's eyes.

[TMA_1]

you are kinda getting too emotional there man. also, remember paul in philemon talked about this. Slavery exists. It isnt as important as saving somebody through christ. The spirit is immortal, the body isnt. Some people are stuck in that position. We cant overthrow a nation that is independant of us just because of that.

(I am talking on spiritual terms with empr, hope I am not offending anybody.lol)

[Edric O]

God did not look at the earth and see a bunch of lines and nations using slaves...he saw HUMANS enslaving HUMANS. This is not some "american" issue. National boundaries are irrelevant to what is right and wrong. This world will never progress when people keep thinking in terms of man-made lines on a map. That is really sad. When God looks at planet earth- it is the view you get from space. No lines....no borders...just land, sky, sea, plants, animals, and people.

when a group of powerful people are all balled up in one area....who sit around while another group of people suffer under evil tyranny....God sees no line. He sees no black and white little line. He sees a group of people who invent a line to give them an excuse not to give a cup of water to a thirsty child. He sees 1st world free white men who play computer games, enjoying lifes luxuries not lending a hand to the struggle of the least of these. Those who don't even have freedom- the most basic human right of all. The one right that ALL should have....the one right that TRANSCENDS imaginary man-made lines on a sheet of paper...the one right that MUST be fought for and defended....with the price of blood.

I wish...I just wish that you would bump into an Iraqi american sometime for an eye opening view of shat it is like not to have freedom. Because I truly believe you have no idea what it is like.

Those who have more, more will be required from them.

Those who have the ability to help the helpless and do not......

God sees no lines drawn upon the earth.

You are absolutely right. I have been saying the same thing for a long time now. Borders are artificial lines drawn to divide Humanity. Nationality is irrelevant - above all, we are HUMAN! The same blood runs through our veins!

God does not care for these arbitrary divisions we draw between ourselves. He sees no different skin colours, no nations, no borders. Only Mankind.

...The only difference between me and you on this issue is that I don't think Bush's war will solve anything. It will not free the Iraqis, only give them a new master.

[Anathema]

Said it before, but Emp convienently ignored it.

Aside from the fact that this isn't a UN war or a war of Iraqis, but Bush' little electoral war, the war against Iraq is sheer hypocracy.

There are hundreds of similar (or even worse) dictatures all acros the world (of wich some of them helped by the US, like Iraq in the time that you did like them), yet you don't see Bush yelling at them.

The current mess with Iraq is mostly caused by the western nations anyway. The US and the UK were among Iraqs greatest arms suplyers, and the US even gave Sadam some chemical weapons so they could gass Iranese.

[Gobalopper]

I thought emprworm replied to that somewhere? Maybe it was Nema who said it...?

[Anathema]

In that post I also requested Emp to quit his anti EU bigotry, and then he replied something with how whiteys should shut up 'cause their opinions aren't important. That was about it.

[Gobalopper]

Heh ya I'm not sure where he is going with that whole whitey thing. :)

But I'm pretty sure he said something about the "lots of other dictators" thing and made a good point, I'll see if I can find it.

Yep there it is, see reply #241 on page 9.

[Anathema]

The post I'm talking about was in the Pro-US rallies ignored by leftist Media thread on page 3 ;)

And about the world wide opression thing, the US won't intervene anywhere unless it holds direct interest to either them, or to the president himself (like Iraq).

Why am I supposed to believe you are going to liberate civilians everywhere if you help dictators to enslave them?

[emprworm]

you are kinda getting too emotional there man. also, remember paul in philemon talked about this. Slavery exists. (I am talking on spiritual terms with empr, hope I am not offending anybody.lol)

uhhh...hu?

i remember reading in the BIble that evil exists. yea. So evil exists. now what? Does that mean just sit around and do nothing while people suffer? Slavery exists. Exactly. Slaves are the least of these. You are a free man telling me to ignore the pleas of slaves. I am sorry but that means very little to me. Your message would be radically different if you were a slave right now. I wish you could only hear yourself.