Hedonism and its effects.

[emprworm]

We all know believing in God is irrational and illogical, because it's all coming from a book, so is this bad logic really bad?

??? "we all know?"

where did you pull this statement from?

I believed in God long before i knew anything about any book.

belief in God is a natural logical conclusion regarding the universe irrelevant to any published work.

[VigilVirus]

Are you telling me that you believed in God even before your parents told you that you should believe in him. Were you born believing in God?

[emprworm]

Are you telling me that you believed in God even before your parents told you that you should believe in him.

yes.

Were you born believing in God?

i have no memory of anything before 5 years old. yet that doesn't mean i wasn't thinking before then. i doubt that people at their birth have the rational capacity to understand even their own existence, let alone cause for the universe.

i concluded that there is a God based upon my observations of the universe and my understanding of logic and reason.

[Acriku]

*OT: I smell bad logic, but it doesn't take much to convince a fool (which we all are in our early years)*

[TMA_1]

what is objective logic? you are beating around the bush man! lol an ything can be objective to a person who believes it to be true. Also only a few nations in the past believed in a flat earth. It was thought up thousands of years ago.lol Also what if those cultures thought that the earth was flat? they observed what they saw and put their logic to it. To them it was objective. When something is proven, logic is put to it. Those people to them Knew that the earth was flat (even though it isnt) so they logically placed principals around it. Logic is relative like I said.

[VigilVirus]

Emprworm, since you don't remember anything before you were five, I'm sure you wouldn't remember your parents telling you that there is God at that time, but subconsiounsly you remembered. Anyway, I am sure someone told you that there is a God before you realized it yourself.

[TMA_1]

dont say bad stuff to emprworm. keep it mature man. he has not insulted you.

[Acriku]

I was only saying we are all fools during our impressionable age. I pity the foo who go through the impressionable age!

[TMA_1]

not to you joe. Your a cool jewel dude.lol I was talking to vigil.... you mean man you.lol ;) and wait. I wont forget you either joe... im watching you. ooooh baby.lol ;) Just kidding! lol

[emprworm]

what is objective logic? you are beating around the bush man!

???? TMA I highly suggest you take some basic courses in philosophy. They will cover this for you. Objective logic means it applies to all people, all cultures. Example: TMA cannot be both TMA and Non-TMA simultaneously. This is the law of noncontradiction. A fundamental law of logic. It applies to you whether you like it or not. Go tell your little buddhist friend to take that objective nugget and savor it for a while because nothing you can say or do will make it false. You are incapable of making it false because it is absolutely undeniably true. And the more you fight against it, the sillier it looks because you just continue to pile up contradictory statements.

Because I'm such a nice guy, I'm going to give you the first 2 pages in a basic course in logic:

http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/gallery/rhetoric/terms/logos.html

lol anything can be objective to a person who believes it to be true.

this is an irrational statement. There is no such thing as something that is subjectively objective. it either is subjective or objective. You just violated the law of noncontradiction in your statement. You are way out of bounds here, TMA. I honestly feel you really are grasping at this point because it seems like you do not have an understanding in basic logic. Something objective by definition cannot be subject to the opinion of a homosapic bipedal anthropod. If such homosapic bipedal anthropod makes an objective claim, that bidpedal anthropod is either right or wrong....OBJECTIVELY

Also only a few nations in the past believed in a flat earth.

and they were objectively wrong.

It was thought up thousands of years ago.lol Also what if those cultures thought that the earth was flat?

they too would be objectively wrong.

they observed what they saw and put their logic to it.

and they concluded falsely.

To them it was objective.

And they were objectively wrong.

When something is proven, logic is put to it. Those people to them Knew that the earth was flat (even though it isnt) so they logically placed principals around it.

they never proved the earth was flat. THey made objective claims without proof and without conclusive evidence. Despite those claims seemingly to be reasonable at the time, they concluded falsely. A conclusion is subjective. Logic is NOT a conclusion. It is a means upon which you deduce or induce based upon evidence.

You are grossly confusing these two issues.

Let me try to clarify this, but I must re-emphasize that you should seriously do some reading on this subject.

If you were to show me a picture of a white light and ask

me "WHAT IS THAT?" and give me no more information other than the picture, i would shrug and say "I have no idea."

You then show me a larger picture, this time i can see that the light is coming through a window. Now I begin to use LOGIC. OBJECTIVE LOGIC to draw a conclusion as to what the light is.

"Well, we know the source of the light is outside a window. But I do not know if this window leads to the outdoors or to another room in a building. I think it is reasonable to assume that since most windows lead to the outdoors that this light is coming from the outdoors."

You then show me more of the picture to reveal grass outside the window.

Now, the flat earth people at this point would say something like "IT IS SUNLIGHT! SUNLIGHT! I CONCLUDE SUNLIGHT!"

Is their logic subjective? Well, no its not. They made a hasty conclusion. It doesn't mean the LOGIC they used was bad, it means that the conclusion they made was premature. After receiving more data, we see that the sky is dark, and eventually the TRUTH was that the light was moonlight- not sunlight.

A simple example, yes, but one to illustrate your error in thinking that logic is subject to human will. It is not. Human will can distort proper interpretations of logic. Human will uses logic POORLY. Human will can also ignore logic altogether. Human will cannot make proper logic improper, or improper logic proper. Logic just is.

Many of those same people that saw the earth as flat, if given more data, would have concluded that the earth is ROUND. Why would they conclude that? BECAUSE OF PROPER LOGIC. They used proper logic to begin with- the EXACT SAME logic we use now. They didn't have enough DATA to make a proper conclusion is all. Our logic is no different than theirs TMA! And the data is objective.

Objective data (knowledge of gravity, solar system, ect) + objective logic (deductive reasoning) = objective claim (earth is round)

Any eastern taoist/buddist/shinto spinning some mystical wheel while twiddling with his yin yang balls that wants to dismiss objective data and make rediculous claims like 'the sound of one hand clapping' or 'there are absolutely no absolutes' or 'all truth is subjective....ALL OF IT!!!' can do so, but he is not concerned with truth or rational thought. Such claims are absurd and should be dismissed by any human being who wishes to pursue knowledge and truth.

Logic is relative like I said.

i honestly do not think you really know what logic is if you are going to make that statement. The funny thing is that you just made an objective claim that is contradictory. You use logic to objectively claim that logic is subjective. Your statement itself is a logical statement. And that logical statement is making an objective logical claim that there are no objective logical claims. You contradicted yourself, therefore I can know with IMPERICAL, 100% absolute certainty that what you just said is positively WRONG. Not to offend you, but you are wrong as surely as those who believed in a flat earth. I know this with aboslute certainty.

This is how valuable logic is. In a world full of lies, deceit, craziness, and just plain bad ideas, it lets us know when people are wrong and protects our minds from absurdities like the one you just said : "logic is relative" is a contradictory statement, one that cannot possibly be true. It is a statement exactly the same as someone making the claim "I always lie". You can toss it out as false and never worry about it again.

[quoudam72]

This is late but for Emprwrn balance is good because it is peace the balance of opposing forces. I think you misunderstood my view because you think in terms that can be seen and I am speaking in terms that can not be seen (concrete vs abstract thinking). It is of little matter nothing to debate.

[TMA_1]

hey emprworm please dont be so condescending to me. Plus I read that and yeah that is basic logic but it has nothing to do what we are talking about man.

[TMA_1]

"Also only a few nations in the past believed in a flat earth.

and they were objectively wrong.

Quote:

It was thought up thousands of years ago.lol Also what if those cultures thought that the earth was flat?

they too would be objectively wrong.

Quote:

they observed what they saw and put their logic to it.

and they concluded falsely.

Quote:

To them it was objective.

And they were objectively wrong."

Of course they are wrong, but that isnt the point. They only knew so much, and with that knowledge it explained everything. Their logic worked within their own society. It isnt objective. Each person has an objective view on logic. There are things now days in science that will be proven wrong. undoubtedly stuff you believe in may be wrong, and then by what you say, you are illogical. Thereby saying that since we are imperfect we are illogical, which proves my point.

[lowzeewee]

if there is only 1 true god,u mean the rest of the 3.something billion people who believe in other gods are wasting their time???

[lowzeewee]

Every religion that has a god[buddha is not a god] has evidence to back the existance of their god.How do u explain the proof n existance of non-christian religions then

[Caid Ivik]

They all are worshipping same God. Only they see other properties. Or they does not understand what is the main thing in life. Our culture, as most advanced has naturaly the best view on Him - he is endless love. Not only creator, but also the leader. Or better, father.

[Anathema]

So you are saying that islamic countries are poor and undeveloped because they adopted the islam?

[Caid Ivik]

Islam is degenerated form of judaism/christianity. They believe to a "war god", which leads them as a king, nearly feared emperor, like some in Bible thought too (Ezechiel especially). But they are poor because of culture. Feudalism bring here at least one good thing - saying "ora et labora" ("pray and work") into normal life. We think about work and progress as something good. But muslims haven't such cultural behavior. They live in resource poor countries, so they can only trade. Also, there is lack of science and progressive minds.

[Anathema]

Wich hasn't always been true. During the golden age of muslims they were much more culturally and scientificly advanced then any christian country.

[Caid Ivik]

So, they were spending everything from conquered Byzantine lands. But these progressive minds were soon assimilated. Also look here, we hadn't much progress until 17th century too, but then was the science liberated from feudal hands. We are now uniting natural will to work from feudalism and active fantasy of modern age. Muslims remained lazy and after short time banned fantasy.

[Edric O]

Will to work??? Western society is the most lazy civilization that ever existed! Hell, we glorify laziness!

Science did not advance in Europe because it got "liberated" from anything. It advanced thanks to the spoils of war we got from invading, plundering and wiping out almost every other culture in the world. Just like the Muslims advanced in their golden age thanks to invading, plundering and wiping out the Byzantines.

Western culture is to blame for all the greatest genocides and mass slaughters in the history of humanity. Don't you DARE call us civilized! We wiped out the native americans and stole their lands. We enslaved the whole continent of Africa. We spawned Hitler and Stalin. We created nuclear weapons. We brought the world on the brink of total annihilation. We pollute and kill the Earth itself!

Our "civilization" is the most repugnant piece of moral filth that ever existed! Bless the day when it will be crushed and forgotten!

[emprworm]

Will to work??? Western society is the most lazy civilization that ever existed! Hell, we glorify laziness!

LOL, edric. Now, comeon lets get reasonable.

Science did not advance in Europe because it got "liberated" from anything. It advanced thanks to the spoils of war we got from invading, plundering and wiping out almost every other culture in the world.

just, who, exactly did Galileo plunder? And Isaac Newton robbed how many people? Help me remember the names of the babies that Blaise Pascal slaughtered? How many slaves did Augustine of Hippo have? (btw: Augustine, known as the father of western civilization came from EGYPT so there is a high probability he was part AFRICAN!)

Cmon Edric, sometimes you really impress me with great wisdom, but this time you are spewing waaayyyyy to generalized.

Just like the Muslims advanced in their golden age thanks to invading, plundering and wiping out the Byzantines.

the development of weapons technology does have a way of advancing a society, but that doesn't mean that you are plundering and killing. You ever hear of a concept of "barbarians?" In many ancient cultures, cities had to protect themselves from raiding hoardes such as the mongols. They pushed themselves to develop weapons for DEFENSE, thus furthering their technological progress. Don't be so quick to condemn all of western culture. What culture, then, do you think is morally superior then Edric?

Western culture is to blame for all the greatest genocides and mass slaughters in the history of humanity.

the single greatest slaughter ever committed in all of human history happened in China- EASTERN CULTURE!

case rested.

Don't you DARE call us civilized!

speak for yourself my friend.

We enslaved the whole continent of Africa.

if you know much about the trans-atlantic slave trade you will know that Africans sold themselves into slavery, furthered by middle eastern muslims who were major financiers of the slave trade, (they received much of the wealth from the slave purchases) which then ended up in the hands of westerners. So it is more accurate to say that African, middle eastern, and western culture enslaved africa.

We pollute and kill the Earth itself!

you need to look at eastern and hindu culture if you want the winner in the pollution race.

Our "civilization" is the most repugnant piece of moral filth that ever existed!

man dude, you need seriously to rethink your judgmentalism.

Bless the day when it will be crushed and forgotten!

Peter asked that Jesus call lighting from heaven and destroy the pharisees. he was rebuked.

[emprworm]

Furthermore, slavery existed long before western culture. The greek society was 90% slave.

Slavery has been around for thousands upon thousands of years.

What culture, Edric.... WHAT CULTURE ended slavery? I want you to answer that. In fact, I'll ask it again- this is just how important this question is:

Which culture was it that finally ended slavery- an institution that no other culture on earth had the power to end even after 10,000 years?

i'd really truly like to hear you answer this

[Edric O]

You are right. I am generalizing. A whole damn lot! Because I am raging mad at Caid Ivik pathetic claims of superiority and his contempt for other, more moral cultures. Not everyone in western culture is bad. In fact, we had our share of gentle, noble souls and people willing to sacrifice themselves for others. But they were too few and powerless.

Furthermore, slavery existed long before western culture. The greek society was 90% slave.

Where have you been for the past 3000 years? The ancient Greek culture is the very foundation of our civilization! It was later adopted by the Romans, who spread it through Europe. And we all know that Rome stood at the base of modern European culture.

Among their many other great achievements, our ancient Greek ancestors were the very first atheists in the world... ::)

What culture, Edric.... WHAT CULTURE ended slavery?

The same culture that was its greatest supporter mere years before.

Just, who, exactly did Galileo plunder? And Isaac Newton robbed how many people? Help me remember the names of the babies that Blaise Pascal slaughtered?

Don't pretend you didn't understand my point! You know very well I was talking about the people who financed those scientists. Where did the great fortunes of the Medici come from? How did the British and French monarchies got the money to support geniuses such as Newton and Pascal?

the single greatest slaughter ever committed in all of human history happened in China - EASTERN CULTURE!

Would that be COMMUNIST China? Tell me, which civilization created communism?

if you know much about the trans-atlantic slave trade you will know that Africans sold themselves into slavery, furthered by middle eastern muslims who were major financiers of the slave trade, (they received much of the wealth from the slave purchases) which then ended up in the hands of westerners. So it is more accurate to say that African, middle eastern, and western culture enslaved africa.

Oh, so the fact that THE ENTIRE CONTINENT OF AFRICA was ruled by Europeans until the 20th century doesn't matter? ::)

As for them selling themselves into slavery... You call yourself a capitalist? Then you must know that where there is demand, there WILL be supply.

you need to look at eastern and hindu culture if you want the winner in the pollution race.

And where did you get that little piece of misinformation from? As soon as I finish typing this, I will find you plenty of evidence that the world's greatest polluter is your beloved civilization (of which I am unfortunately also a part of).

And tell me, who sparked the industrial revolution in the first place?

You mentioned NOTHING of horrors such as the mass slaughter of native americans, the genocides of World War 2 or the nuclear technology that could have killed us all! They are all products of our civilization.

Peter asked that Jesus call lighting from heaven and destroy the pharisees. he was rebuked.

"He who raises the sword will die by the sword", I know. I suppose I'll just die by the sword then.

[Anathema]

Many western countries earned loads of money colonies. Vietnam, Indonesia etc. The things we did there were horrorible.