No heavy weapons and bases in novels ?

[technocrat]

We all know HEAVY weapons and bases are all over the place in Westwood's dune, but not in the novel, nor the movie, can anyone expain if this is a lack of communication :-[ between westwood and the author or over inovation ::) of westwood ?

I think DEVASTATORS and MINATORS would make frank herber's dune much more interesting, so will DEVIATOR, although ordos is not in the movie nor novel.

[SiliconWarrior]

all the bases(besides the fremen's) were behind the shield wall in the the cities. As for heavy weapons, the Harks use artillery, but that was just for surprise and to eal them in caves, heavy weapons in the universe are useless becasue almost everything has a shield.(There everywhere execpt in the open desert.

[lowzeewee]

shields attract worms right?

[Usul]

Yup the Holtzman field drives them into a frenzy and every worm from miles around will go to the shield irrespective of terretory, etc.

[technocrat]

-Everything is shielded so heavey weapon is usless:

Two designs of heavy weapons have protential:

1. Shield heavy weapons that outrun sandworms (House Ordos)

2. Unshielded heavey weapon with round that are effecitve against shield.

Since shield can not be used in the desert, I presume heavy weapons are still very effecive against opposing infantries there.

Dispite common believe, armors can be very fast. I presume they can use armor in attendence with carryalls.

by the way, I wonder why they can not build bases inside rocks.

[Timenn]

The Fremen Sietches are built in the rocks

[nemafakei]

To answer your first question, these weapons are almost solely Westwood's creation. The books are best when they do not concentrate on the technology, but on the people. Else you end up with starwarsesque rubbish. (Consider and compate the prequels to the original)

"1. Shield heavy weapons that outrun sandworms (House Ordos)"

Er, they only outrun worms in the games, not the books.

"2. Unshielded heavey weapon with round that are effecitve against shield."

Shields are very difficult to get through - except in the games. Almost no such weaponry exists, with the impractical exception of shields.

Armour is not very fast on sand, especially given the harshness of dune. Carryalls are much faster.

Aircraft are a very important part of 'desert power'.

[Anathema]

Shields were impervious to conventional gunpowder weapons. Slow moving objects may pass, so melee combat was reintroduced when the holtzman shield was invented.

Keep in mind that the author (probably) thought of shields in order to keep the focus on soldiers and hand to hand combat.

[technocrat]

well, a energy based or gravity based weapon can be effecive against shields. There has not been a technology without an counter and there will not be, since if something is very effecive, tons of people will be working on a counter, that is what R&D is paied for ( engineer myself )

by the way, in 10,000 years, most battle will take place in space with shielded battleships if shields and FLT systems are relyable. Precision Orbital combat platforms are way to effecive against anything on ground. (more like homeworld then dune)

I know the dune books has many things explained. but sword fight in 10,000 years make no sense.

just flame me, I know you will.

[nemafakei]

No matter how big your weapon, you are limited to at least two things:

1. Heavy restrictions on electronics, due to the Great Convention

2. A sword in your ribs is still a bit of a problem, if people can get there, which in some circumstances, they can.

"well, a energy based or gravity based weapon can be effecive against shields"

Energy weapon - yes, lasers.

Gravity based wepon - that is the same effect as a shield. It would only push the shielded object backwards a bit, if at all.

"Orbital combat platforms are way to effecive against anything on ground"

Not too easy when the Guild has the monopoly on orbital objects, and doesn't want their own banks etc threatened and so on...

[Edric O]

Space-based weapons are a monopoly of the Guild. Therefore you can't have space battles.

[Ghosty_Square]

Things are as simple as that:

Against shielded targets, only hunter seekers(who slow down enough to penetrate the shield) and melee weapons may be used.

Against unshielded targets all kinds of projectiles can be used, but it is much better to use lasguns instead. That's the reason Harks used lasguns to hunt the fremen.

And nothing survives in the desert, worms catch everything. So don't even think of vehicles that outrun worms.

[technocrat]

yes, no vechel of 10,000 can outrun a WORM

Against shields, subspace weapons, qautum technology, there is a will, there is a way.

Heavy weapons, if infantries are shilded, so will heavy weapons, and if you can't get close to one, much less getting into them.

yes. guild did have the monopoly, but what's the smuggler's guild doing if guild really have everything in space ?

[SiliconWarrior]

The smugglers dont really have much to do with space, they simply smuggle stuff that CHAOM rations for profit(spice), and part of that profit is paid to the GUILD for letting them aboard their ships.

[Anathema]

yes, no vechel of 10,000 can outrun a WORM

Against shields, subspace weapons, qautum technology, there is a will, there is a way.

Heavy weapons, if infantries are shilded, so will heavy weapons, and if you can't get close to one, much less getting into them.

yes. guild did have the monopoly, but what's the smuggler's guild doing if guild really have everything in space ?

I suggest you read the books before telling the author what to write about.

[Acriku]

The guild holds the Space travel monopoly, everyone that hopes to go somewhere offplanet is dependent on them, which is why they charge high prices 8)

[lowzeewee]

I wish the guild is gone LOL then all the troops on arrakis are doomed HAHAHA

[Terror]

if a lasgun hits a shield a nuclear explosion starts and destroys everything in the vicinity...

still i agree with earthnuker, it doesn't realy make sense.. they can make shields but nothing that can penetrate them... except for slow pojectiles. Why can slow projectiles pierce it but fast ones not ???

there are many more things that should be questioned, but i'll not ask em now

[Anathema]

Huh? When did I say it didn't make sense? Ok, it doesn't really, but it's okay because it allows sword fighing 8)

[TMA_1]

because the shields vibrate on and off kinda. that is a really bad explanation but I am sure nema could explain a lot better. its kinda like the refresh rate on your computer. It flickers on and off so fast that super fast projectiles cannot enter through the sheild. Slower projectiles have an easier time of entering into the pulsating shield.

[Ghosty_Square]

A lasgun that hits a shield does not necessarily produce an explosion equal to an atomic one. As described in the books, the outcome greatly varies-it may only kill the gunner and the target or produce a very powerful explosion, similar to one caused by nuclear weapons.

[Terror]

Huh? When did I say it didn't make sense? Ok, it doesn't really, but it's okay because it allows sword fighing 8)

hmm k well i say it makes no sense, srry for that

[Acriku]

The reason why the shield is so small and not used for a whole planet against physical intrusion, is due to the major limiting factor - the radius of the effective proojection. No matter how much energy you pump into the shield generator, you cannot expand it beyond a certain constant value.

The reason why "the slow knife penetrates the shield" is because of the velocity variable. The incident velocity becomes relevant when you separate it as a function of the shield's effectiveness. Thus, at some minimum value for the velocity, the protection factor becomes completely insignificant. Meaning, anything slower than a bullet will go through the shield's protection with no resistance.

Straight from the book ;)

[Inhuien]

A point on the suggestion regarding orbital ordinance, Agreed that mass beam weapons may be the logical option but what would happen when one of those hit a shielded emplacement? Baring in mind the effect that lasgun fire has on a belt-mounted unit.

And anyway it

[Terror]

The reason why the shield is so small and not used for a whole planet against physical intrusion, is due to the major limiting factor - the radius of the effective proojection. No matter how much energy you pump into the shield generator, you cannot expand it beyond a certain constant value.

The reason why "the slow knife penetrates the shield" is because of the velocity variable. The incident velocity becomes relevant when you separate it as a function of the shield's effectiveness. Thus, at some minimum value for the velocity, the protection factor becomes completely insignificant. Meaning, anything slower than a bullet will go through the shield's protection with no resistance.

Straight from the book ;)

anything slower than a bullet? then why don't they make slow bullets 8)

and if a laser attacks a shield a nuclear explosion comes out of that right? Well then why don't the harkonnens send out suicide guys with a laser or something that fires on an atreides guard with a shield generator.. this way they can just blow the atreides up.

Also in the Miniseries i didn't see the harks or fremen use shield generators and they fought each other with knives and some guns... this all doesn't make any freaken sense