The troubles of democracy

[VigilVirus]

US supports Israel, because they feel so close to the jews in their stealing of the land from the original owners. Can't you just feel the similarity? ;)

Anti-semitism sometimes is very well deserved.

[TMA_1]

I sense anti semitism in you. You havent read what I said. The hebrews controlled it long before the islamic peoples did. The palistinian quasi government is also pretty screwed up as well. A seperate state for them would only cause more problems. The palistinians would want more and more. The hebrews dont have enough land to give. It is just a little sliver of land that the islamic nations are trying to take.

[VigilVirus]

No it wouldn't. It would solve many problems. And as I said before, who cares who controlled the land first? You might be living in a house that was taken from someone in some war - does that mean their descendants have a right to it?

I'm not an antisemit. I just prefer to view things objectively and realistically.

[TMA_1]

I do too. ;)

[Acriku]

Anti-semitism sometimes is very well deserved.

What?! What are you smoking Vigil! You just got done saying all racism is equally bad, then go around saying oh sometimes it's good, you know in some cases they brought it up themselves. Bullshit! No prejudice is deserved, no matter how bad anyone's ancestors were!

[emprworm]

Acriku, how would you feel if someone came and kicked you out of your house, saying that "My great, great, great... grandpa lived there a long time ago and this house was taken away from him in some war". Well that is the same as with Israel.

well how would I feel? I wouldn't like it. So I grab my gun and tell him to get off my land or else. But if he comes with an army stronger than my army (as is the case will all revolutions, conquerers in history), then OH WELL! OOPS I just lost my land. Muhammad conquered Israel and got their land. Just like Napolean, Mongols, Spanish Conquistadors, etc. They conquer. They get land. Now Israel decides its going to take the land by force. Much like the Romanians did 12 years ago during their revolt against Nikolas when they took over the government of romania. Now, Palestine fights back (as is the case in any revolution), but they dont have enough fire power to WITHSTAND the revolution, therefore they LOSE THEIR LAND. just how it goes.

and the external world should not be meddling with an internal revolution.

[Acriku]

I think they should if it involves them as much as it involves the US. Israel is a vital ally, not to be lost to a bunch of Palestines who will hate US probably. Hmm let foe kill friend, or help friend kill foe, and all is good?

[emprworm]

i cannot possibly forsee that Israel will ever be a lost ally for the US. of all our allies, I think they are the most reliable and we would surely back them

[TMA_1]

emprworm, the jews were given the land by the british and the U.N. after ww2 because many of them had nowhere else to go. They rightfully owned the land thousands of years ago and were given it. They possess the land now and so it is theirs. The palistinians do not have the land anymore and are frankly worthless to any part of the middle east. Giving them a seperate state would not accomplish anything.

[Digital Guerrilla]

Whatever the British had too many secret deals that is why have the Israeli/Palistine conflict. If the British would have honored their agreements to the Palistines and not made any other outside agreements both Israel and Palistine could be states. Palistine has as much right as Israel to be a state. Due to all the political garabe within this sitution it may never be settled anytime soon.

[TMA_1]

right now israel controls palistine and I am glad.lol

[Caid Ivik]

Nation of Palestinians actually hasn't controlled its country much. Ancient Canaanites were pushed out by Israel, which fell under Assyrian, Babylon, Persian, Seleucus' and Roman empires. Then, after Bar Kochba's uprising were Israelits banned to enter the Palestine. After fall of Rome it was part of Byzantine, which soon had lost it to Arabs. Next history is very known, crusades, Saracens and after all Ottomans, from their hands straightly to Britain, which gave it back to Jews.

Palestinians - or Canaanites - were in this century only sources of civil wars. First was Jordan, before Israeli invasion, from where they came to Libanon and now they are trying to disintegrate Israel. Rules of war are tough and the winner is only the strongest - and that's the Israel. There is no right to posses land without numberous nation in such warring area. You can't look with european humanic view on Asia.

[Acriku]

No people deserve the land they live on if they can't contain it. Palestine will diminish it to a 3rd world country, with riots and chaos, and right now Israel is prosperous under the Jews. I think the Jews have all the right to stay.

[quoudam72]

What happened to the principals of the free world you guys sound like a bunch of dictators speaking to an angry mob ready to attack, "Israel should be free!", "Burn Palestine to the ground!" Wake up Israel is free and Palestine is being burned to the ground. You guys are so sicking with your total disregard for others you bunch of internet gurus if it were not for your parents computers none of you would know your behind from your head. I am so sick of these half-baked posts about who had the land first. It does not matter it is beyond ownship of the land. Palestine should be it's own state period. The Palestinians have a right to be masters of their own fate. Did Israel not fight the British using some of the same tactics in their quest to be a state? For all the information that has been posted none of it is has reasoning. Educated fools speaking to hear the sound of their own voices through egostical self-centered posturing.

grumble, grumble, grumble >:( :-X

[Anathema]

Finally! I thought everybody except me was against a Palestinian state.

[emprworm]

Palestine should be it's own state period. The Palestinians have a right to be masters of their own fate

yada, yada. this is all nonsense. No one on earth has a "right" to their own state. What if I woke up tomorrow and said "you know? I think I want to be my own state. Hey, this land my family has been living in for Generations, I herby declare this to me MY LAND and MY OWN STATE!"

Lol, well we all know what kind of garbage that is. Now do I have a "RIGHT" to declare that such and such piece of Land is mine? Yes. But does that mean I am going to get the Land? Heck no! There will be a contest for that land, and the losers...well they lose. Enter Chechnya. What do you think is going on there? They want to succeed from Russia. There is a dispute. There will be a winner....and a loser. Whoever loses...TOUGH thats how it works. Dont give me this "they have a right to their land" crap. If that is the case, THEN I HAVE A RIGHT TO MY LAND. Heck Edric has a right to succeed from Romania and declare a new nation. He should even be allowed in the UN. The Peoples Republic Of Erdica

[Acriku]

Hey I am a white American with european descent. My family was casted out (left willingly, but I like to think cast out) of England! I should get a state for my family! Oh but my military sucks (me and my bb gun) so I'll send my pet cat into England with a few c4's attached to its bell on the neck. That way, whenever they hear jingle jingle they will duck for cover. I will continue to buy cats and send them off on their Feline Crusade. Sorry Nema, but my cats are coming after YOU.

Back to the topic, why would Palestine ever settle for a state when it is fighting to gain back the holy land? The palestines want it, the Israels have it and have every intention to keep it, so why would either side settle with a state?

[quoudam72]

yada, yada. this is all nonsense. No one on earth has a "right" to their own state. What if I woke up tomorrow and said "you know? I think I want to be my own state. Hey, this land my family has been living in for Generations, I herby declare this to me MY LAND and MY OWN STATE!"

Lol, well we all know what kind of garbage that is. Now do I have a "RIGHT" to declare that such and such piece of Land is mine? Yes. But does that mean I am going to get the Land? Heck no! There will be a contest for that land, and the losers...well they lose.

blah, blah, blah is it really all nonsense? Did America not fight against England to be masters of their own fate? Did America not fight (when the British came and the Native Americans and also the Spainish) to secure the land that is now the United States of America? Garbarge still has a foul odor no matter who's it is? Get my point. So do not try to sling mud and think you won't get dirty wearing a white suit. ;)

Enter Chechnya. What do you think is going on there? They want to succeed from Russia. There is a dispute. There will be a winner....and a loser.

Russia has tried to conquer the

Caucasus and to hold it under Russian control by any and every means,

often willing to destroy and wipe away the original

cultures, to convert the inhabitants into a new

religion, or, like happened during the red nightmare of

the Soviet era, to import a strange and monstrous

totalitarian ideology and even to destroy whole

nations into extinction by terror, genocide, and

deportations of millions of people. All problems in this region

were caused or created only by Russia, and it has no

intention of solving them. They have been fighting for their freedom in this region for about 200 hundred years this is not something that happened overnight. You should do more research on the subject I can even help you with your homework. ;D 8)

Whoever loses...TOUGH thats how it works. Dont give me this "they have a right to their land" crap.

Let's take a fictional sitution what if the 'Axis of evil' members all got together and decided to attack America (not the mainland at first but in other global regions) and won (God forbid such a thing). Would you still be saying well you have winners and losers? I do not think you would because the shoe would be on the other foot and that foot would be the one kicking you. For what will be the last time, any other time that we discuss this matter I have never said that Israel should give up land I have said that the land that the Palestinians live on should become a state. Period and end of my statement quote me if you like but I ask that you get it right and if their is any misunderstanding I will do my best to clarify. :O 8)

If Edric were to do that he would no longer be able to enjoy his posting on the internet in Romania they 'disconnect' your services for such things atleast that is what I am told and I know nothing. :-X

[TMA_1]

you have good points quandum. I am for israel being a strong nation state though. I guess its bias but its true for me.

[emprworm]

Did America not fight against England to be masters of their own fate?

yes.

and we won.

Did America not fight (when the British came and the Native Americans and also the Spainish) to secure the land that is now the United States of America?

yes.

and we won.

Garbarge still has a foul odor no matter who's it is? Get my point.

yes i get your point. but if you lose, then oh well, deal with it.

Palestine IS going to lose. Now, like all others who have lost revolitions, you just have to deal with it. Isreal will let them live as citizens of Israel (if they dont then we have international crimes against humanity then intervention is warranted), but as for the losers of the revolution (palestine)...well, what can i say? Looks like Muhammad successfully conquered 1 less nation than he intended. Oh well, at least the muslims have umpteen other nations that they conquered where they are still in control

If Edric were to do that he would no longer be able to enjoy his posting on the internet in Romania they 'disconnect' your services for such things

LOL! If edric had his own state, I'd be blaming him for the worlds poverty. ;)

[Acriku]

Quondam, I'm sure empr and I would die trying to save America from the enemy. I would rather die than live under the rule of enemy forces, and letting all those who have died before me to have died in vain.

[quoudam72]

Acriku

Quondam, I'm sure empr and I would die trying to save America from the enemy. I would rather die than live under the rule of enemy forces, and letting all those who have died before me to have died in vain.

I would expect no less from you either. :)

As for you emprwrm (Quondam shakes his fist at Emprwrm) >:( ;) :P

[SurlyPIG]

True democracy: majority rules.

My ideal of, and the commonly accepted form of democracy: majority rules, with enforced respect for the rights of minorities.

We are individuals and should be treated as such. We are not part of a commune. We are not just a puzzle piece. Every person has the potential to be anything they want to, not just what someone tells them to be.

[Caid Ivik]

Majority rules. But minorities have the right to be not discriminated. Anyway, older and larger states have the right to protect themselves from destructive diversy. Very hostile deviants must be assimilated. Like Arafat's or Maschadov's minions. This Palestine or Chechenya made enough problems. Country built by terrorists will NEVER be prosperous or democratic.

No such country was democratic... As democrats, we mustn't allow spawning of another one.

[Anathema]

Emp, suppose, Germany starts exterminating jews. Since the jews aren't strong enough they loose, and therefore have no rights, and certainly not the right to whine. Suddenly the US comes along and pounds Germany into the ground.

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