TMA_1 Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Thats right.lol another post. I have been busy with finals so this is my chance to really post. I am writing a paper on this. I notice that there has never been a true democracy. The ideals though do exist? are they necessarily good though? Many say yes because they are presentistic and dont study the past with objective view points. Notice that democracy has destroyed cultures through the spreading of democractic ideals to third world nations. They have made a demand that western culture be prevalent around the world and use things like political correctness as a veneer of tolerance. The structure of american business in our "democracy" is extremely machiavellian, the end justifies the mean. It does work but at a cost of sick practices. I am not saying that a republic is bad at all. I am talking strictly about democratic ideals. Throw patriotism out the window when you post. Talk objectively. What do ya guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Why does any form of government have to be "true"? Why can't we alter the methods and ideals enough so that it remains its name but has better policies, etc? And another thing, I support Machiavellian practices, but only if there is no morally better option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 lol acriku if you have read The Prince, and you think it is decent in its morals than you really are sick. I would say that for anybody. Of course all government systems are flawed. I posted this because there seems to be a concensus that Democracy is the "best" form of government. It spreads like wild fire and many people of many nations really dont like it. It also fails in certain cultures. Look at south america when they are ruled under democracy. I posted this because it seems there is a bias for promoting democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 I do think it is best, show me a government that is implemented in a country that is as big as USA or significantly big and works as much as USA is. Edit: By the way, The Prince was never meant to tell everyone that if the ends justify the means, do it, he meant an entirely different message. Forgot what it was lol, but I know it isn't end justifies the means, that's just public propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 lol okay you are off the hook joe :P I guess its how you read it. I thought it was pretty gross myself. True, america has done some pretty amazing things. Does that mean it is beneficial though? I think that though america is great and would fight for it, it has many flaws that the founding fathers failed to point out. They were hoping the future generations would improve on it but I dont see that happening much. Things like the party systems and growing antagonism against original constitutional amendments like freedom of speech and religion. I wont list freedom of carrying fire arms because that really is an amendment that could go either way. also the freedom of the press and uncontaminated trial seem to be growing less and less. tax issues involving greater federal taxing and less state taxing as well. just a bunch of stuff that is almost impossible to deal with. These problems are real and I think are important to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 " Notice that democracy has destroyed cultures through the spreading of democractic ideals to third world nations. "how so? I dont see this. And even if it is so, why is it derogatory. Obviously at one point in time, the entire culture of humanity consisted of rudimentary living. Cultures change, they don't stay stagnant. From mideval Europe --> Modern Europe you could argue their culture was "destroyed" but does that make it bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 I think many countries hate democracy because they think it's an American idea, they think they will end up like Americans. I think they're wrong. Democracy is the perfect way of getting your word out, without any restrictions. It's a closer step to freedom. Strangely enough, people still want to live under one leader, one totalirian leader that points the way for them. Maybe because they feel more as one, maybe they are too weak to make their own decitions, I don't know. Some people may think democracy will release their grip of power. Democracy should also mean that the country wotes for a question, like: "Should piercing be allowed to persons under 18 years of age?". Well, should it? Who decides when we "know what's best for ourselves"? I know now what I want to be, what party I want to vote on (and why), what I like. We have exactly that question here in Sweden (the piercing question). I think persons at least over 15 knows what they are doing. Wrong or right? I don't know. But people should be allowed to get their voice out before the government do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 "think many countries hate democracy because they think it's an American idea, they think they will end up like Americans. "lol the irony of that is that there is no such thing as an "american race" Americans are just a bunch of chinese, mexicans, blacks, australians, europeans, russians, japanese, indians (as in from india)....am I clear yet?how about the most diverse country on the planet.Americans ARE other cultures, races, peoples. so if democracy is an american idea, then it is a japanese idea, a dutch idea, a german idea, a french idea since all those people live here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Okay, maybe a "Western Idea" then. If you go to the middle east and ask them if they want democracy they will just show you the finger and answer "fu_king American", and maybe throw a stone or two. They think democracy is American. They hate America, and it's ideas, it's people (no matter where all people comes from), and etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 you guys all have good ideas but I think that too much power of the mob, which is what the word democracy means, "rule of the mob". Too much power to the people is dangerous because it levels on anarchy. True, there are officials, but with too much public power they become puppets and eventually falter. That is why there has never been a democracy. I think that the ideals of democracy are good to a point. The problem is there is no equality. There are people who are smarter than others, more hard working than others, train better than others. Why do we have to put those people down in order to keep up with the weakest? That is what C.S. Lewis talks about in his book The Screwtape Letters. That democracy can destroy individualism. I am not for eugenics or not helping people who are mentally handicapped, because frankly they are extremely unbiblical. I am just saying that individualism is something that democratic ideals seem to attack on. Political Correctness is just a thing that democractic ideals use as propaganda. Saying things like "celebrating diversity" and stuff like that. silly silly silly.lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Race and nationality are two different things. When you say American you mean nationality. Not race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 Anarchy is when each invidual do what he/she wants to do. In anarchy, there is no democracy. If you don't steal anything, no one will have any reason stealing from you. Sure, there will be trade, but in anarchy no one trusts each other, from my perspective. Democracy is when people, in a society with laws and order, have a vote in different subjects. Democracy should be able even in communist states, because it is the majority of the people that decides what's best for the whole country etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caid Ivik Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 Democracy is an invention of ancient Greeks. Even all tribe leaders were chosen by tribe members. It's nothing new. Yankees just modernised it and showed us how it should look like when functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 Hmmm...I'd be a monarchist except that I don't like the word 'King.'I'm an Imperialist! Yeah! Vast Empires stretching across continents with a complicated Heirachy, a single leader and no power to the people! They're common anyway, they don't deserve it.Now if I was in charge I'd be Emperor and I'd give land and titles to people that I like, do what I like, break any laws that I like, pay people only when it suits me, and live a life of luxury and power while everyone I don't like died in slums or of overwork. Then when I'm happy I'd increase their wages, living quality, happiness, etc. And when I'm not then I'd hop off to the torture chamber for a bit of fun.What I'm saying basically is, democracy stinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 People with power can do whatever they wish. But they can not rule every single person in their empire. They need people to like them. They need people to support them. Sure I would agree to an empire if that empire was ruled fair, which will never happen the next 500 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 Democracy seems to be the best system to ensure a minimum of corruption and abuse, but the man (or woman) chosen by the people may not always be the best man for the job. *Cough cough Bush cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 True democracy is rediculous, even as an idea. Many people have no idea about the government and therefore won't know (or won't care) to do what they are supposed to. The will act for their own selfish benefit and in the end the country will get trampled by others with more efficient government. Technically - the more democratic the govt - the less efficient it gets. A Dictatorship is the most effective type of government, but as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 Well then dictatorial government isn't very efficient now is it Vigil? ;) There isn't a true democracy anywhere, but people will try to make it as close as possible, perhaps blinding themselves in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 It is efficient - as in effective. And by that I mean decisions are made quickly and without arguments. Military is strong, economy is also quite powerful.But the common man suffers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acriku Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 Oh ok I see your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 23, 2002 Author Share Posted November 23, 2002 good words vigil. The problems of democracy stem in the fact that it hasent truly been tested. Even America, the democratic republic, was called the "nobel experiment". The overall effects seem that a democracy deteriorates pretty fast. It has been stabilised though by more individualistic endevors like capitalism and whatnot. Just leaves me with problems. democracy taht is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caid Ivik Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 Hmmm...I'd be a monarchist except that I don't like the word 'King.'I'm an Imperialist! Yeah! Vast Empires stretching across continents with a complicated Heirachy, a single leader and no power to the people! They're common anyway, they don't deserve it.Now if I was in charge I'd be Emperor and I'd give land and titles to people that I like, do what I like, break any laws that I like, pay people only when it suits me, and live a life of luxury and power while everyone I don't like died in slums or of overwork. Then when I'm happy I'd increase their wages, living quality, happiness, etc. And when I'm not then I'd hop off to the torture chamber for a bit of fun.What I'm saying basically is, democracy stinks.Ahh, this is called FEUDALISM. We had it for whole millenium. You've missed it on about 90 years. But I can't see much material or immaterial improvement in that era. Feudalism is inproductive. Also, it is against all laws of christianity and humanity. People must be same in chances. Throne is for best of them, not chosen by family line.Imperialism isn't government system, it's the specifical form of foreign politics. Most common is economical and military control over other smaller and weaker states, especially by ruler-dolls. But such imperialistic state isn't always feudalistic. Name it's from Roman Imperium, what was actually purely despotical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 90 years??? I don't think there was feudalism in 1910. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 Okay, maybe a "Western Idea" then. If you go to the middle east and ask them if they want democracy they will just show you the finger and answer "fu_king American", and maybe throw a stone or two. They think democracy is American. They hate America, and it's ideas, it's people (no matter where all people comes from), and etc. You fail to explain WHY they hate America. Enlighten us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilVirus Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 Lol, why would you need an explanation? Don't you know. The word starts with an "I" and ends with an "srael". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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