The troubles of democracy

[DukeLeto]

What does Isreal have to do with America? ???

[VigilVirus]

US supports Israel.

[Caid Ivik]

Supports? USA were controlled by Jews or at least sionists. They've built it - on now arabian holy land. Arabs are too mean to allow any Jews or Christians on it, altough for them it's holy too. What was in 1947 was an eight crusade. At last succesful.

90 years??? I don't think there was feudalism in 1910.

Actually last feudal country fell in 1917, so it's just 85 years.

Due to your nationality, you should know which one it was, VigilVirus ;)

[VigilVirus]

Russia wasn't feudal in 20th century. It was an empire ruled by a tzar.

[VigilVirus]

Supports? USA were controlled by Jews or at least sionists. They've built it - on now arabian holy land. Arabs are too mean to allow any Jews or Christians on it, altough for them it's holy too. What was in 1947 was an eight crusade. At last succesful.

Britain was the country that organized Israel on the colonial Palestine land. I think that is one of the biggest mistakes in history. Palestine should have been given their independance and Israel, not created.

Think of all the lives that were lost because of that and then say that the founding of Israel was the right thing to do.

[Caid Ivik]

Ruled by tzar and boyars. And after Nikolai's abdication boyars remained - until 7th November.

[Anathema]

Is boyar a russian aristocratic title?

Feudalism was the system of the dark ages when you had lords who had his vassals run towns for him. The lords were hostile to eachother and you had no monarch who ruled the whole country. Russia did.

[Acriku]

The founding of Israel was a good thing IMO. They had the land before the Palestines, so out of the two they should get it.

[Anathema]

Like 2,000 years before they took it, they owned it so they do own it now because it belonged to their ancestors 2,000 years ago ::)?

Since there are generations of Israelians that were born in Israel, they now have the right to defend what they have but they deny the rigths of the Palestinians, to who the place is holy too.

[Acriku]

I don't get your question? Anyways, whoever was there first out of the two should get the land. That's it. If both sides believe it to be holy, but cannot both live there without hostility, then one has to leave. And that would be the Palestines. Of course, if they had a war over this, the Israelians would win, and yet still win the land. So what do you want? Do you want the two to force themselves beyond all imagination to like eachother, kiss, hug, and make up so they can live peacefully together?

[Anathema]

No, of course not. I believe the palestinians have the right for an own state, without the meddling of the Israelians. They should have free acces to holy places (though they should not be allowed to live there, because of the neighbours). That's basicly what they want, yet we keep denying them it.

[VigilVirus]

Acriku, how would you feel if someone came and kicked you out of your house, saying that "My great, great, great... grandpa lived there a long time ago and this house was taken away from him in some war". Well that is the same as with Israel.

Why does everyone think that the Jews that are now have any right to that land?

But you see, if Jews came in and took over the land themselves in a war, that would have been conquest and the land would therefore belong to them, but you see, the Jews in Britain decided to take over the land without anything, just take it because it was colonial. And that is not conquest - that is STEALING.

[exatreide]

Oh so the whole united nations giving it to them in 48 was just a big....

missunderstanding? ::)

even so if the palinstian had it they would of only had it since 1918 when my boys the Ottoman empire controled isreal and palistine.

[Anathema]

Then how'd they lose it? The ottomans were muslims, so were the Palestinians just former ottomans?

[TMA_1]

about 3200 years ago the canaanites were kicked out of some of their city states. by 2900 years ago they were completely ridden of from their land. The Hebrews Conquered the land in their beliefs from God's word. I believe this. around 2800 years israel was split into two confederacies. Judah and Israel. The northern part which was israel was taken by the assyrians. about 2750 years ago. Then the southern kingdom of judah was taken about 2580 years ago by the caldians or neo-babylonian empire. The neo babylonian empire was then conquered by the medo-persian empire. One of the Darius' allowed the jews to enter their land again. about a hundred years after that, Alexander conquered the empire of the medo-persians. When alexander died four of his generals controlled the land mass that alexander took. Eventually the ruler of the middle east who was a decendent of Ptolemy, one of the four generals, began to abuse his power and Judas maccaibius took some of israel back and so did his ancestors. The roman empire eventually moved in around 200 b.c. and israel was again eventually reclaimed by pompey. One of the three counsols of the roman empire. After the republic was destroyed, the hebrews grew tired of being controlled by the romans and during the reign of vaspasian caesar, at around 70 a.d. the general Titus caesar, son of vaspasian took israel and the jews were dispersed. It was originally the hebrew's homeland and they claimed it fair and square. The Canaanites no longer exist and so the rightful owner are the hebrews. Not the palistinians who got the land and lost it to the british. the british gave it to the jews. Therefore they control it. No P.C. crap can change that. sorry of any spelling of historical names.

[Dude_Doc]

Why not build a synthetic island? Yeah, right, no one would go there because there is nothing holy on that island. But if you think about it. If someone somehow forced either Israel or Palestina to move on that island, and succseeded, would the future generations really care? Sure, it would be like the police breaking in to your appartment/house, and forced you to another house. I don't know. The only mentally disturbed idea is to drop a gigantic atomic bomb and destroy both countries. But that would rise hate elsewhere. It seems the two is destined to fight each other to death. In the end, both will lose, if the present situation continues...

[VigilVirus]

The continued struggle has made them into the kind of people who would rather die than see their enemy live. So an outcome with them both dying is not as appalling as you might think.

[exatreide]

Then how'd they lose it? The ottomans were muslims, so were the Palestinians just former ottomans?

The ottomans may have been muslims but some of there striktist coverment was in palistine.

[Acriku]

Vigil, allies of Israel wouldn't let them all die. Unless it is in some mass suicide because they saw a Palestine crossing the street ::)

[VigilVirus]

I think it is extremely unfair that Israel is supported by many of the most powerful nations on Earth, while Palestine has no support. You see, the only thing they can really do against Israel, with all those US weapons, is acts of spineless terror and killing of civilians. It should have never gotten to that point and the fault lies in supporting Israel. We should let them fight their own battles with their own weapons.

[TMA_1]

The palistinians havent controlled that area in ages. The muslims lost lots of their land to the british. The british gave palistine to the jews after world war 2 because they are hated by so many. Anti semitism is much worse than hatred of palistinians. Also the palistinians are disliked by most of the muslim nations. No muslim nation would ever take them in. They are kinda considered the "white trash" of islamic culture.

[Anathema]

Anti semitism is much worse than hatred of palistinians.

Either that came out really wrong or this is a racist statement.

It doesn't matter who "owns" it or who was there earlier. Both are there right now and they have the right to be there because it holds religious value.

[TMA_1]

no I mean in the epidemic of racism. Anti semitism is much more previlant than hatred of palistinians. or even muslims for that matter. One of my friends who comes from a rich family and is jewish tried to get into a country club and were turned down. They do all sorts of things and people slip out horrible htings about the jewish race such as they are all crooks or they are going to steal money. Sorry about that earthnuker just read between the lines better next time. :)

[VigilVirus]

All racism is equally bad. Don't tell me it's not, that would be descrimination of racism ;).

It does not matter to whom the land originally belonged - it is to whom it belonged last. And it was not to jews.

[TMA_1]

it isnt a matter of if one form of racism is better than another. The fact is, is that anti semitism is a much more popular and long lived hatred than hatred of the palistinians. Your political correctness is just getting in the way with the truth. Racism against the jews is more of an epidemic. discrimination is extremely important in weeding out certain evils that are more previlant. Also the Hebrew controlled palistine originally 3000 years ago. That is much older than the islamic population in palistine that eventually was taken by the british. If you feel that way vigil than america should give back all land to the native americans. We have only put them in reservations and even they are controlled by the federal government. They dont have their own real freedoms. On point one the hebrews should continue to control palistine because they were there before the muslim population. Second is because possession is 9/10ths of the law. They control it and therefore is their land to do with as they please. No other person has a right to dictate what to do with their land. Third is the fact that they are the only really strong ally with us in the middle east and are crucial in our affairs in international policy. Another issue to put in is that the palistinians never took care of their land like the hebrews do now days. It is a prospering nation and shouldnt be meddled with because it is a sovergn nation. What right does any nation to force their opinions? All nations are equal. no matter how evil or good they are.