Debates...

[Acriku]

Using democratic rights in your argument Edric?

Anyways, nowhere does it say that you don't have to do anything just because he claimed something. It may say it in a book, or a philosophy class, but what value does it have in here? If you argue the otherwise, prove it. That goes for both sides. Why must one be lazy?

[ordos45]

Good point Edric, I personally do try to see the other guy's point in the issue. (Unless, I'm letting my anger rule me.) Though pointybum, I am wary of someone who claims to be over a millenia in age.

[TMA_1]

children dont have the same mental capasity and knowledge that adults have usually. I stress the word USUALLY.lol I only argue for fun. Arguing in itself is a waste. Debate is better. Arguments are never settled unless one denies his beliefs. This is wrong because it is forcefully done. Debates use reason. Of course you have debates turn into arguments but thats another subject.lol

[Anathema]

You know, TMA initially started this topic accusing people of his own age (he's 17) of posting bull crap.

Pointybrum, life experience is not always related. If I know a certain part of history better then somebody twice my age, that has nothing to do with experience. Adults only have more authority on a subject if the subject is subjective (not objective)- an adult cannot re-write history.

[TMA_1]

yup. now it has turned into a rousing discussion. Im glad you see my point earthnuker ;) lol. Besides I never said that I was better. I just notice crap that happens and say something about it.

[Acriku]

Well Earthnuk, Bum said on the topics of feminism and racism, not history. It does take experience to have any idea of it, and I think we all live where a day of feminism/racism is enough experience.

[pointybum]

You know, TMA initially started this topic accusing people of his own age (he's 17) of posting bull crap.

Pointybrum, life experience is not always related. If I know a certain part of history better then somebody twice my age, that has nothing to do with experience. Adults only have more authority on a subject if the subject is subjective (not objective)- an adult cannot re-write history.

To make a totally sound judgement on anything in life is best done from experience, anything outside ones personal experience are then offerings of advice from other people's experiences. We instinctively look to our elders in times of need, as we instinctively trust an older persons judgement over a younger persons - this is the natural makeup of human responses.

So if we put 'years' to the above factors regardless of IQ, good parential influence, luck, etc; who would be still be the wiser? lol

[Acriku]

Well, in a lot of societies, elderly are getting more and more ridiculed. It's sad, but true. And it depends on the wisdom we want. Why would we ask an elder about puberty issues? We would be more open to people our own age, who have common experiences.

[SurlyPIG]

Pointybum, Edric and I aren't argueing the generalizations you make, in fact, I suspect he agrees with them, as I do. What we are argueing is why WE deserve to be ignored because of the actions of those our age. You have said that, no matter what the arguement, you would hold the words of a teenager in with less regard, if any, than those of an adult. Reckognize that there are exceptions to any generalization and your outlook should accomodate those exceptions.

Obviously, age is the most difficult stereo-type to accomodate. Placing restrictions based on age is pretty dumb, IMO, unfortuneately the alternatives are quite impossible. For instance, I can say with absolute confidence that I would be a conpetant voter. You may laugh at me, but I laugh at the idea of competance and responsibility suddenly developing when someone reaches the age of 18. It's ludacris. I know people who joined political parties when they were 12. On the other hand, I know a 20-year-old guy who voted for the communist party because he thought it was funny. I'll be able to drive before I can vote. Unforuneately it's the only way to assure the concept of voting isnt abused. Obviously for something of this "all or nothing" nature, it is impossible to accomadate everyone, but there's no reason YOU can't. Age and sex are the last accepted barriers in western society. Sure, it's tolerable, but what you can't possibly relate to (anymore) is how much of a pissoff it is when you're getting the short end of the stick all the time because of a two-digit number on your drivers license.

Speaking of drivers, age and sex are universally accepted demographics for dermining the premiums one must pay for car insurance. I think it'd be funny if someone were to open an insurance company that also determines its prices based on citizenship, religion, and race. Of course it'd be wrong, but it's equally wrong as the generalizations that are widely accepted today.

[TMA_1]

You notice teens are so idealistic? notice that our emotions rule us? Every teen does have that problem. It is our body overproducing chemicals that while make us grow faster also rack our emotions. We dont have a good standard opinion because our bodies and minds are too mentally unstable. We are so idealistic or pesimistic. we arent ready yet to vote or do anything truely "adult". even if we have the capability to do those things are done in an unstable mind.

[pointybum]

You notice teens are so idealistic? notice that our emotions rule us? Every teen does have that problem. It is our body overproducing chemicals that while make us grow faster also rack our emotions. We dont have a good standard opinion because our bodies and minds are too mentally unstable. We are so idealistic or pesimistic. we arent ready yet to vote or do anything truely "adult". even if we have the capability to do those things are done in an unstable mind.

Thanks TMA, an honest answer. Now say the same thing about yourself in 10 years time, read these topics and I promise you will say OMG to yourself. I speak for myself, of course I am, but ask any 25+ and they will share my point.

The teens is a fantastic era, and I enjoyed mine, except for one day when I was 15. I got beaten up by my elder brother for growing too big for my boots. For some of you who dont know what that means, it means I was being a now-it-all and I was determined to be right about everything. My arguements were lacking clout because I was assuming too much without offering personal experience, hence my point earlier.

Somebody said earlier that it is this age that a person gets the most education and is quite naturally exercising that fresh knowledge. There are a lot of things I've forgotten since my teens, I can only say that I relate to you all in different areas. However, I don't remember exercising my opinion on women as though they were an alien specie.

This was the whole reason why I made my comment in the first place. Seemingly, some of you guys seem intent on proving me wrong and I expected that. A good debate is only worthy of contribution if genuine thoughts were offered instead of assumed projections.

[TMA_1]

true pointy. You have some good ideas.

[Edric O]

My argument has nothing to do with opinion on women/the feminism topic! I don't even post in it!

I only resent your generalisations, pointybum. They are ridiculous and an insult to many people. Yes, I agree that most teens are like you describe. But not all of us. ACE put it best:

Pointybum, Edric and I aren't argueing the generalizations you make, in fact, I suspect he agrees with them, as I do. What we are argueing is why WE deserve to be ignored because of the actions of those our age. You have said that, no matter what the arguement, you would hold the words of a teenager in with less regard, if any, than those of an adult. Reckognize that there are exceptions to any generalization and your outlook should accomodate those exceptions.

As a psychologist, I would have expected you to realize that each person is an individual personality and should not be stereotyped.

The only value of experience is that it provides knowledge in certain fields. But you can't have "experience" in religion (one of my main debate topics). As for politics, do you have any experience in that field, pointybum?

Furthermore, your nick clearly demonstrates your "maturity", doesn't it? ::)

TMA, stop insulting my mind and my intelligence. If you continue with comments about my mind being unstable, etc., just because I am in a certain age group, I will report this flaming to the mods. Keep me out of your generalisations.

Yes, I do have a very short temper and I am quick to anger. But it does not affect my judgement. I never acted irrationally since I was 12. I do not endorse teen "culture". I do not take people's appearence into consideration when forming an opinion about them. I do not follow sexual impulses. I do not attempt to hide my personality in order to be in line with socially accepted standards.

I didn't get into the best highschool in my country by being stupid.

[Acriku]

Oh please, flaming? Hey Edric your brain is unstable. Hey mine is, too. Hey TMA's is, too. Oh no don't ban me... :P

And of course anger influences your decisions, maybe in a small way because you seem to have self-control, but you can't make anger inexistant. And edric, stop acting like a perfect teenager! You have urges, you have uncontrollable feelings, don't deny them! You are normal, I am normal, TMA is normal (sorta ;)), don't act like you don't have feelings. Unless you became a eunich early on ::)

[Edric O]

Insulting my intelligence is one of the things that I cannot stand. You can insult me in other ways and I won't mind. :)

I have urges, and I have feelings. Everyone does. But I keep them under control.

There is no such thing as an "uncontrollable" feeling.

[Anathema]

Problem is, you don't always know when you are letting your feelings control you- and sometimes people don't want to control their feelings.

[Edric O]

Problem is, you don't always know when you are letting your feelings control you

Yes I do. I just ask myself whether my actions are logical or not. If I am being ilogical, I'm letting my feelings control me.

[Anathema]

There's a first time for anything.

[nemafakei]

Dr Pointybum (I assume), I still fail to see your point.

It is (I hope) all agreed that teenagers do not have much experience of the world compared to their elders (and so can and do often make untrue assumptions and calims). Thus, on average, the elders should indeed be wiser. But we have not yet accounted for the deviation from this mean.

I agree that there are numerous people

You seem to simultaneously say

- That you do not judge people by stereotypes, but know eash to be individuals. From this, we can deduce that there will be perceptive teenagers who know more than others, and gain more from ther experiences.

- That the adults will be invariably wiser than the teenagers. (From this we can deduce that either knowledge and intelligence increases far beyond that of the variation in the population at a given age, or that as time goes on, the youth get thicker (ie measuring different individuals, but the same sections of society over time)).

- That those (A) who have less experience than others (B) should not speak as if they have any experience of a topic to a group ©, who could be even less experienced. If we did this, education would come to a standstill.

We know that variation in intelligence and perception are high, and that youth are not getting thicker over time, and that most of the point of childhood is preparation for social circumstances, and gaining experience.

Neither side has given evidence, as for this topic, it is not really possible. Hence, we need a logical basis for both arguments.

Would you kindly state, in one post, WHAT your stance actually is?

[nemafakei]

Hmm. I got an error, and managed to post twice, and the remove post button is gone.

[Acriku]

Edric, you are ignorant of the fact that the manipulated never know they are manipulated. Because if they are truly manipulated, they wouldn't know they are being manipulated. It is stupid to ask YOURSELF if YOURSELF is being controlled. *sees a beautiful girl walk by, walks up to say HI but then asks himself if he's being illogical ::)*

[Edric O]

In that case, it seems I have been fortunate enough to be able to always control my feelings, because my sense of logic never changes, no matter what mood I'm in.

Unless you are being manipulated every second, it is quite easy to tell when something's wrong: compare your current way of thinking and logic with the way of thinking you had at some point in the past. If there are differences that can't be explained, something is wrong (either now or back then).

[Anathema]

And you analise yourself non stop? And people do not always follow logic, not even you.

[Edric O]

Not non stop, just when I'm particulary angry, or otherwise susceptible to go nuts. :) And when I'm in the mood for self-evaluation (about once a month or so...)

Of course I'm not always logical, but I'm working on that ;)

[Anathema]

Vulcan wannabe :).