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Evolution and Creation

Inoculator9

By Inoculator9
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pointybum

pointybum

Posted
Posted

I've done it, I've spent a whole week in a ward - what do you tell these children that are dieing? What do they understand other than they should be out playing, they should have a whole life ahead of them. How's that?

I can give them hope, let them know that death is not the end, and help them find at least some peace. You can give them Nothingness. A great Void. Oblivion.

Perhaps you do not understand, Pointybum, but my religion is about love. Christianity is about love for your fellow man, which should take precedence over all else except love for God:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

- Mark 12:29-31

Well, Edric, you can give them love as much as I had done but this is sliding from the point once again.

I am talking about the moralistics here - if there is a god why is there suffering, especially to children, as to any age group. There's plenty of love in this world without religious involvement - that is genuine love, not a quote from a book or a quote of faith.

Is there a hand on your heart? To say that I give them nothing, a void, oblivion, really is tacky and very lowly judgemental to non-believing people, and certainly very belittling to the experience I have shared.

Acriku

Acriku

Posted
Posted

Edric, please, if you can force that religion onto those children then you might give them love, but most probably have or are on their way of losing their faith. Many in times of need and despair lose their faith because they concluded God was simply not there. Not interactive at all. Notta. Zip. Such as war, where many come back (more than not) with no faith. But having no faith doesn't mean we lose all morals, we use our own morals (developed in the moral development stage) for things like helping other people out, becoming a humanist for example.

But I agree if you are going to help someone out, do what you can, and giving them false hope does good things for them if they were to die without ever finding out the truth. But do not use the situation to convert people, that is immoral.

And if I have children, I will use religion for its morals, and I will talk about God just like Santa. Then when they grow up to about 10-16 I will never put emphasis on the God concept ever again and let them choose for themselves. Hopefully the morals will stay in, and then whatever choice they make is the right one for them.

Acriku

Acriku

Posted
Posted

Just because there are obvious exceptions, doesn't make it not true. You seem to use the same reason to believe in God that I use to disbelieve, for now. So somewhere long the line we interpret something differently and/or we are using different pathways of logic.

I don't care if he is right or not, but taking advantage of the situation and converting someone weak-minded for the moment is wrong. That's why priests go to differnet people at the hospital and just pray for the hurt, not enforcing their beliefs on the sick/hurt, and they don't say Believe in God or you will die into a horrible hell (which is what the truth is for Edric I guess). It is making the situation worse. Putting fear in a dying or hurt child is wrong. But if you dress it up a little, say "Believe in His Holiness my dear child, for He will relieve you of your pain, and your soul will rise to heaven, where there is no pain only happiness. May God be with you my child." and then start praying. That would be giving the child an idea that someone is out there taking care of him and would make him happy for the remainder of his life (assuming he is going to die). That is a great thing to do. But in reality it is selectively positive, saying half the truth. So it is lying somewhat. Not that it is bad, but for principle it is lying (not saying the whole truth).

Acriku

Acriku

Posted
Posted

Oh my god Empr you have gotten everything wrong. I actually approve very highly of a priest going into the room and praying for the child, telling them they have hope and giving them happiness where they wouldn't be. Jesus did you just skim my post with no comprehension at all? I don't you think you read it very well.

emprworm

emprworm

Posted
Posted

hmmmmm, i did read it, but i may have interpreted it wrong. Usually I try to understand what you are saying. I re-read it again. It seems like you are "ok'ing" someone doing it though its a half-lie...?

I guess thats better than how I originally interpreted it.

fine, fine. my bad.

Edric O

Edric O

Posted
Posted

There's plenty of love in this world without religious involvement - that is genuine love, not a quote from a book or a quote of faith.

Plenty of love in this world, Pointybum? Look again. Look at the wars, the killings, the hatred. Humans slaughtering humans by the millions. Cruelty beyond words. Holocausts and gulags. Endless cycles of revenge. Nationalism, racism, patriotism! Nothing but euphemisms for blind hatred! 25 thousand people dying every day of starvation, and nobody cares.

And you stand here and tell me that there is plenty of love in the world? All I see is Death.

God is not doing this. We are. Those children would most likely not be dying if all the money we spend on killing machines was put into medical research.

Why is there evil in the world? Because we welcome it with open arms.

emprworm

emprworm

Posted
Posted
Plenty of love in this world, Pointybum? Look again. Look at the wars, the killings, the hatred. Humans slaughtering humans by the millions. Cruelty beyond words. Holocausts and gulags. Endless cycles of revenge. Nationalism, racism, patriotism! Nothing but euphemisms for blind hatred! 25 thousand people dying every day of starvation, and nobody cares.

rarely have I heard such ringing words of truth and wisdom in such pure form. I do not think in a week I could have said it any better.

Anathema

Anathema

Posted
Posted

A very accurate description, but if there is not plenty of love, then there is also not plenty of religious love. And of the love that does exist, not all of it is because of religion.

And religion may also be used as a means of opression. The Russian czar had also the highest religious authority, and in pre-revolution Russia you had slavery, famin because the goverment stole everything etc.

And in the cities of London during the industrial revolution, poor laborours had nothing to cling on for hope except religion. They did not revolt to demand better conditions.

In pre-revolution France, there was a sort of parliament in wich the nobility, church and civilians were represented- but each of them had the same number of seats, while the civilians made up like 90 % of the population. The representatives conspired with the nobility, so they would always outvote the civilians and could ride on their backs till the people finally revolted.

nemafakei

nemafakei

Posted
Posted

"God is not doing this. We are."

Hmm. I really dislike the stance 'God created everything nice, we created everything evil' or similar...

All things dull and ugly,

All creatures short and squat,

All things rude and nasty,

The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,

Each little wasp that stings,

He made their brutish venom.

He made their horrid wings.

All things scabbed and ulcerous,

All pox and viral strains,

Putrid, foul and gangrenous,

The Lord gave us such pains.

Each nasty little hornet,

Each beastly, slimy squid,

Who made the spikey urchin?

Who made the sharks - He did!

All things sick and cancerous,

All evil great and small,

All things foul and dangerous,

The Lord God made them all.

- Python.

But I agree that there is far too much malice in the world. And it is something we must change, be we religious or not.

TMA_1

TMA_1

Posted
Posted

why dont you like an animal's beauty? just because its squat? I find beauty in things that you dont see. Also disease was a cause of Adam and eve's sin.

nemafakei

nemafakei

Posted
Posted

Ok... "All things dull and ugly" was not meant to be serious! Hence the song, and the credit to Monty Python, who wrote it... my point was not based around short, squat or ugly things, but the malice. It was just something semi-relevant.

emprworm

emprworm

Posted
Posted

i think that if mr. Python studied herpetology he would realize the immense value in snake venom and the creatures vital role in nature. An entemologist understands the great role that wasps play in the environment.

Sharks too are amazing creatures.

There is only one creature on this planet I can find no good use for and seriously wonder why it was ever created is a mosquito. If there is such a thing as a creature from hell, that would be it. If every mosquito in the earth was killed, it would be a great improvement, IMHO.

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