Evolution and Creation

[emprworm]

You can overthrow the government they imposed on you, but don't go around punishing the common people for it!

I agree with this Edric. SO LET ISRAEL FINISH REMOVING THE GOVERNMENT AND INSTITUTE A NEW ONE

[Anathema]

Bah- bet you didn't have to look all that Dutch history up now did you ::)?

We have more in common with the Palestinians- Wilhelm the Silent was in fact a terrorist- a term usually considered strictly evil, but that's bullsh1t.

the Frisians who were conquered by Rome

Frisians conquered by Rome?

LOL!

Friesland was the part of todays Netherlands that did not get conquered! Or in better terms, did not get occupied by Roman forces. Friesland was under water half of the time (there were no dikes at that time) so it was of absolutely no use to the Romans anyway.

And Frisians are Dutch citizens, with the same rights as people from other provences- in contrast to the Palestinians who get murdered by the Israelian government on a regular basis.

And Frisians aren't a different people. They do have their own language of sorts (it developed seperately), but all Frisians can speak Dutch- some Frisians can't even read their "own language"!

So Frisian aren't a separate people, they are Dutch people (some conservative people may disagree, but most people think they're weird anyway).

Uh, and I'm born Frisian myself, so shut up.

About the whole revolution thing, the Dutch had already risen before the Spanish fleet was destroyed. Filips II meant to conquer England and then reestablish his authority in the Netherlands. Btw, the Dutch didn't just sit there- the leader of the fleet, the duke of Parma, sat with a couple of ships in Zeeland and was supposed to rendezvous with the rest of the armada- he didn't. The Dutch people blocked him in the harbor of Duinkerken.

Wow, the Dutch got OUTSIDE help from someone else. I guess that means it wasn

[Edric O]

I AM LETTING ISRAEL FINISH REMOVING THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT

Did I ever argue against the Israelis? I was only making a general point, about WARS (not rebellions/revolutions/etc.)

[emprworm]

The Romans under Augustus defeated the Belgae and the Batavians (the ancestors of the Dutch). The Frisians formed a treaty with the Romans at the River Rhine in 28 AD as a result of being defeated.

So Frisian aren't a separate people, they are Dutch people (some conservative people may disagree, but most people think they're weird anyway).

so are native americans american people.

You finally show yourself as the liar you truly are. You were the one to say revolutions shouldn't be influenced from outside, so you believe the Spanish should still be sitting in the Netherlands

i was just pointing out your history. i made no comments as to my personal opinion of the actions.

[Anathema]

The Romans under Augustus defeated the Belgae and the Batavians (the ancestors of the Dutch). The Frisians formed a treaty with the Romans at the River Rhine in 28 AD as a result of being defeated.

They could have defeated Friesland as well if they wanted too, but there were no dikes and the land was of no value to the Romans. Also, they could have defeated the Frisians, but they couldn't have hold the territory- imagine a Roman base in a region that is under water for half of the time.

so are native americans american people.

But the muslims in Israel are not the same people as the jews in Israel.

i was just pointing out your history. i made no comments as to my personal opinion of the actions.

You're still a liar. You wer putting your words into my mouth.

[emprworm]

You're still a liar. You wer putting your words into my mouth.

oh, am i?

lets see...."it was you who gave the Israelians the guns required to keep this going. In two words: American ego."

Not my words. And it was the English who gave you the guns to keep going. Should I say anything about Dutch Ego? Naaa, you see it doesn't really bother me that you slaughtered so many Spanish people and brutally murdered the local Romans when you revolted against them around 50 AD. Thats just how history goes

"May I remind you that they took the land from the Palestinians who lived there (they lived there before, but they left, so that's no argument" Not my words here.

And what about the Frisians who packed up and left? Yes, thats right, you packed up and left volunatrily (the Jews did not)

Friesland had been early settled, with evidence of terp-building, the distinctive raised settlements, starting in 700 BC. The people began to be a distinctive tribe in around 200 BC. They were displaced from their homeland to Flanders and Kent, England due to heavy flooding in 250 AD. Habitation of the area remained impossible for the next 150 years. When some of the Frisians returned around 400 AD there were already Saxons and Jutes settled there, and the Frisian people merged with them.

So, I dont think I'm putting words in your mouth, just exposing your double standard.

[Anathema]

lets see...."it was you who gave the Israelians the guns required to keep this going. In two words: American ego."

Maybe a false statement of mine, but it's not putting words in anyones mouth- you do.

"May I remind you that they took the land from the Palestinians who lived there (they lived there before, but they left, so that's no argument" Not my words here.

Again, I never put that in your mouth.

But even today, the US keeps sending financial aid to Israel- that's interference wouldn't you say ::)?

Friesland had been early settled, with evidence of terp-building, the distinctive raised settlements, starting in 700 BC. The people began to be a distinctive tribe in around 200 BC. They were displaced from their homeland to Flanders and Kent, England due to heavy flooding in 250 AD. Habitation of the area remained impossible for the next 150 years. When some of the Frisians returned around 400 AD there were already Saxons and Jutes settled there, and the Frisian people merged with them.

Nice of you to show how well you can look things up, but that's quite irrelevant. In the past centuries the people of Friesland have mingled with the "real" Dutch people.

[Acriku]

We gave Israel guns and fighter jets, etc, becuase they are our strong allies. It's that simple. They make their own stuff by our jets and guns, and they fend for themselves. Like teaching a man how to fish, not giving him some fish.

Anyways, Quondam and Empr, if you want to argue how unlikely evolution may seem to be, then don't blame me for saying that religion is far more unlikely.

[quoudam72]

D

[emprworm]

But even today, the US keeps sending financial aid to Israel- that's interference wouldn't you say ?

lol, the US has given money to every country in the world. Honestly, is there even one single country the US hasnt given money to?

Frankly, I think we give too much cuz ppl are so ungrateful. At least Israel doesnt whine and complain about aid they get. Unlike nearly every other country who gets aid from us.

[Edric O]

Upon reviewing the topic, I realized that my last post sounded as if I was completely enraged. :) But I didn't mean it to come out like that - I tried to emphasize what I was saying and ended up "shouting". Sorry. :)

[Anathema]

Does the US give money to Arafat? If the answer is yes, post some reference, because it seems unlikely ::).

Frankly, I think we give too much cuz ppl are so ungrateful. At least Israel doesnt whine and complain about aid they get. Unlike nearly every other country who gets aid from us.

You mean that countries that get aid from the US should keep their mouth shut and follow the US as dogs? Oh, what am I saying- that was exactly what you were trying to achieve! But let's stay on topic.

[emprworm]

You mean that countries that get aid from the US should keep their mouth shut and follow the US as dogs?

no i mean that if they get AID (which is not a loan, but pure unfettered free AID paid for by yours truly) and they whine and complain, then they simply get nothing. Let them go without if they want to spew their anti-american crap. When their unfettered greed subsides, and they start being thankful for what they get, we will be happy to once again give them millions of dollars of free non-loan money and aid. I really dont care if anyone follows us, and most certainly no one is going to shut their rampant mouths.

LOL

this room is a testimony to that.

Arafat gets no US money but palestinians have gotten plenty .

[pointybum]

I am troubled.

Amplify this discussion by 7 billion and we have the world as we see it today.

The one thing that separates us to all species is one of lateral thought. Isn't it ironic that one thing is killing our world, softly, regardless if the other species can have a say or not.

[emprworm]

well that is why the worlds problems will never be solved by any government, IMHO.

The jew/palestinain conflict has been drug out too long. Just let Isreal finish toppling the palestinain government and be done with it.

If they are going to persecute the palestinians afterwards, then they will have to be confonted.

[pointybum]

you missed my point, completely.

[emprworm]

lol i guess I did. O well.

besides we went way off topic of evolution, so lets get back on topic!

[Acriku]

Empr throughout page 10, 11, and possibly 12 you have missed my posts. Look harder! :P

[emprworm]

anyways, Quondam and Empr, if you want to argue how unlikely evolution may seem to be, then don't blame me for saying that religion is far more unlikely.

how can you say its unlikey?

Probability can be used explain measurable acts in nature. We can definitively say something is unlikely based upon natural probabilities (of which evolution is the case) but since religion is not confined to the natural realm, I see no basis for you to apply a statistical probability to the existence of a supernatural realm.

On what basis can you calculate a probability for the existence of a supernatural realm, and how can you reach the conclusion of "unlikely?"

[Acriku]

That's such an old argument in fact I'm getting tired of it...You guys preach how God has to be this complex creature outside of our laws and time - and you reason with logic! It's a hypocritic fest in here. But I'm not invited :-[ Sniff sniff.

[emprworm]

lol! Acriku

[Acriku]

Why do you preach your assumptions of God? He might be a single blip of a thought that creates life. Nothing complex, just a thought. A thought that can instantaneously go places(that's from some movie, but sounds right). Human kind has been known to highly exaggerate.

[emprworm]

because it is logically impossible that God could be a thought. A thought is the by-product of a mind. A thought cannot exist without intelligence. God is the greatest possible being. If God is a thought, then God cannot be the greatest possible being, since that thought would have to be produced in a greater mind.

God must never be defined as something illogical.

The moment you define god as an illogical being, then we can empirically say that such a defined being does not exist. Therefore GOd cannot be a "blip"

[Anathema]

Question 1: what created God?

Question 2a: if God existed forever, was there an infinite amount of time before he finally decided to build Earth? That hurts my brain.

2b: if God didn't get created by another entity, but was suddenly there, how could an entity such as God just suddenly be there?

[pointybum]

because it is logically impossible that God could be a thought. A thought is the by-product of a mind. A thought cannot exist without intelligence. God is the greatest possible being. If God is a thought, then God cannot be the greatest possible being, since that thought would have to be produced in a greater mind.

God must never be defined as something illogical.

The moment you define god as an illogical being, then we can empirically say that such a defined being does not exist. Therefore GOd cannot be a "blip"

God is the creation of the logical mind, and the logical mind wants to worship in its own logical way, the problem with that is it doesnt stay there - it's everyone's unique interpretation that ruins it for others if it doesnt agree. This whole thread doesnt one bit answer the real meaning of the message behind religion other than to confirm that it causes arguements. Spread that to a global issue and you have the world as we see it today, completely argumentative.

Thats why I have suggested some of the things - science gives logical reasoning, religion offers logical hope but no meaning to a person who sees science as a sensible divider between reality and myth.

The best part of it is that nobody can explain the things before 2000AD - all the old monuments - stonehenge, easter island, the giant balls in Sri Lanka etc. These prove that civlisations had come and gone before the one we have now today, so does the bible to whatever faith disregard these previous civlilisations?

At the end of the day, its what makes you happy, so as long as it doesnt make another unhappy is my motto. But that isnt the case, it makes the world argue and I resent that.

These prove of mankind's existence before christ and therefore things went on before