Iraq

[emprworm]

devastator anyone tell you that you are wrong? Because you are wrong.

How about I say it again:

the United States does not, has not, nor ever will need Iraq's oil. Go read Acelethal's post. He isnt a US citizen either. You should consider learning from other people instead of letting your hatred of the US get in the way of your truth. I dont care if you hate the US. I just wont let you get away with lies.

[Devastator_Mech]

devastator anyone tell you that you are wrong? Because you are wrong.

How about I say it again:

the United States does not, has not, nor ever will need Iraq's oil. Go read Acelethal's post. He isnt a US citizen either. You should consider learning from other people instead of letting your hatred of the US get in the way of your truth. I dont care if you hate the US. I just wont let you get away with lies.

Well I do not know where you live and if American's uses Iraq's oil or not. I live in Australia and definately, Australians DOES use Iraq's oil.

Maybe Americans doesn't use Iraq's oils for NOW, but the matter of fact is, America WILL be interested in oils REGARDLESS who owns the oil as the owner is an "undeveloped country"

Theif formular: 3rd world country = Steal anything valuable whenever there's an excuse.

2rd & 1st world country = Steal anythimg valuable whenever there's chance.

[emprworm]

Theif formular: 3rd world country = Steal anything valuable whenever there's an excuse.

2rd & 1st world country = Steal anythimg valuable whenever there's chance.

Uh, and what is your formula?

Lie about the US wherever there's a way to do it.

We haven't stole anything from anyone. The only middle eastern supplier of Oil we rely on is Saudi Arabia. And you think the Saudi's are so stupid they let us steal their oil? Cmon man. What are they teaching you down there? You get bit by one too many funnelwebs? Box Jelly got your toungue? Get that taipan out of your underwear and quit munching on all the vegimite. lol. you're a funny guy, Dev. :D

[quoudam72]

Dev-Mech there is no need for outright insults I do not agree with some peoples views either. This is not an insult thread, you bring down the intelligence of the thread when your view is based apon insults. I think we can come to a few very good conculsions in this thread even though the views are very different. My point being get some facts and not just insults and your views will be welcomed better.

[emprworm]

id like to know precisely what it is we've stolen, and from who?

[Dude_Doc]

This reminds me of World War 3: Black Gold game, where the U.S., Iraq and Russia battles for oil. I agree that many countries hate the U.S., or at least their media does. For example, my country hates the U.S.. I know the do. The media in this case does hate the U.S., resulting in total BS in the papers. Also, the newspaper "Metro", there are various people that can write their views on things, say "Why should there be war" or "is oil important". They also looks down on the U.S.. Funny enough, only me and a friend truly respects America, and I can say I know pretty much people.

"Wake up Neo. Follow the oil. Knock Knock..."

[zamboe]

You say that the oil in the US is unregulated. I say, BS. The oil market was the FIRST thing that was regulated, back in the day of Rockafeller's oil trust. That's where the term anti-trust comes from. The US is a free market economy, and as such major businesses can make major influences. But the price of oil is not set by one person or one company. It is set by the whole supply/demand principle. That's basic economics.

I say firmly that in the World (includes US) the whole oil business is totally unregulated. You obviously don't know what regulation means. The existance of laws doens't mean that markets are regulated. And btw basic economics are not enough to understand the situation you need more much more than the first chapter of any economy book (supply and demand) to get it.

The OPEP is the living prove that the oil market is not regulated at all, because in the last 2 years the oil price has been set artificially to high levels (28 U$D average per barril) because the OPEP members are not producing at full capacity, it they were producing at full capacity and full competition were going on the price would be bellow 25 U$D p.b. and the winter (season increments at least in 20% the demand, depending on how cold is) would not affect the international price. If Iraq were pumping out as much oil as they can prices would be around 20 U$D p.b. And for emprworm who says that US dont need it, well maybe they dont need that precise oil, but hell they need that oil go in to market so prices of other oils can be lower, Bush is a business man and he knows how that would boost economy not only in the US but also in the world. When u put gas in your car (and sourprise why the price has been increasing since the last 2 years continously) your are paying the no existance of regulation, simply as that, because the OPEP takes advantage of that. The only two great oil producers that are not part of OPEP are Mexico (with most of his oil production sold forward for several years to Japan) and Russia.

If you want to know what business are regulated i will give you an example : utility companies. The company that provides your water, that's an example of regulation.

Call me out of line if you want, but IMO what you said was out of line. I hadn't even commented on Israel, Iran, Jordan, or anywhere else in the middle-east and you come out with "Get some education on these countries". Like I said. Characteristic of nav. I'm not saying your as bad as him, I'm saying it's something he does. Perhaps that will serve as a wake-up call.

Where did I say "Get some education on these countries"? You are making that up.

Continue with your insulting indirects, it talk by itself about you.

It just proves that you are not ready for respectfull debate, where people will never make personal atacks or so, in a good debate you will never see that.

I read someone mentioned the Kyoto accord, saying that all G8 nations have signed on except the US. That's false. I could be wrong, but last time I checked, Japan was on the fence. Canada hasn't signed on either. Our senile P.M. who no longer has public support is desperate to leave a legacy so he's buying into every left-winged idea he can get his hands on, Kyoto included. He said he'd sign Kyoto on Canada's behalf, WITHOUT EVEN CONSULTING HIS OWN MINISTERS. Oy!

The Kyoto accord is the most inompetantly designed piece of international legislation that this generation has ever seen. It'll do this:

1) Slow down the economies of the major western countries, who can no longer use, refine and produce oil, etc.

2) Force businesses in these countries to relocate their operations to developing countries.

It won't do this:

1) REDUCE GREENHOUSE EMMISSIONS.

Shocking, but it won't. Since the big manufacturing and refining companies will simply move to other countries, where there AREN'T regulations, greenhouse emmissions will most likely grow. This isn't speculation, my dad told me all about how dumb the Kyoto accord is over time. The company he works for is effected by the Accord already. Fearing it'll hurt them, they've completely stopped an oil development project in northern Alberta, Canada (Canada has not signed on yet but most likely will if the P.M. doesn't grow up). Instead, they're channeling their resources into opening up a new project in Venezuala.

Wrong again.

The Kioto protocol is not a one page list of intentions. It's formed by several chapters that were discussed for years, and those chapters after the approval of the administration should be present to their local congress for the total approval.

THE MAIN chapter of that protocol (Kioto) is about commitment to reduce emissions in periods of 5 years (in a whole of 25 years) each reduction is based on actual emission of each country (it considers that branches of international companies are considered local in terms of accounting emissions if those are in other countries than their H.Q.) and also the principles for economic transaccion of emissions for those countries who don't use all his emission rights. Well, that's the heart of Kioto protocol and the US is the only one that has not signed it. In the other chapters US has signed some of them.

BESIDES ALL THIS, there is no unrefutable scientific evidence that global warming even exists. After 1940 until the 70s, the world was cooling, and there was a global cooling theory that was making the world uneasy (since there IS geological proof of an ice-age). Studies have shown that overall trends in the Earth's average temperature is completely dependant on sun activity. It is possible that the warming caused by the sun (remember, we are still coming out of an iceage here) is accelerated by greenhouse gases, but that hasn't been proven.

Then the GREAT OZONO WHOLE IN THE SOUTHERN POLE IS JUST A JOKE. The increment in skin cancer that afects people ? What kind of prove are you looking for ?

Back on topic, like emp says nobody "needs" Iraq's oil. Because oil is a non-renewable resource, people seem to think that it's going to run out soon. I wish I could post a link or something, but I read a newspaper that said we had used up 85% of the Earths oil and that there would be no oil at all in 20 years. Oh, BTW, the article was written in 1925. :D

At the present time with the GDP of the world growing at 1.2%, the proved reserves of oil would last about 112 years more.

But wait, if the world economy recovers, I mean Japan comes back to old years, US gets back and Europe speeds up a bit more, for every 0.1% of increment in the GDP then the oil would last about 0.4 years less. (That's called crossed elasticity), at the good times economy would grow about 4.5 %, then you do the math and sourprise how much oil we have left.

Good news are that prospection and exploration continues in new territories, such as Eastern Russia and South America, maybe Alaska too, so potencial new reserves might be discovered.

Everybody's up in arms about Bush's intenions and what-not, and I say, nobody really knows. He hasn't mentioned oil once, and I'm inclined to believe that it IS part of their campaign on terror. Remember what I said about seeing things that aren't there? Besides, nobody can truly tell his intentions with 100% certainty. What really matters is, what will the product of the war be? Deaths? Yes. I think it'll be much heavier than Afganistan for both sides, and for civillians, simply because of the nature of the hold the Hussaine government has on the Iraqi people.

Agree in that, just to add that one of the main interests of Bush is the oil in Iraq, besides other interests. Terror ? Iraq of course is a potencial source of destruction and terror at a major scale.

Well to finish, for emprworm, I might go the easy way and say it your way "emprworm : dont be brainwashed by the PR of the white house, think your self, dont believe your LOCAL media", but let me tell you something that's not the way to continue a constructive and educated debate. Besides yesterday, I watched CNN, just because i was courious (because simply i dont watch that channel), a program called "American Edition","Money Line" and live reports from the debate that is currently in progress in US Congress, well now that I see that at all levels in the US there is no consensus about what Bush want to say and what reasons he is giving. Makes me think I am not wrong.

[emprworm]

I say firmly that in the World (includes US) the whole oil business is totally unregulated. You obviously don't know what regulation means. The existance of laws doens't mean that markets are regulated.

I think you need to define "regulated"

Oh, they are regulated, just not in any manner consistent with logic or servicing humanity. And if you think the US controls the oil markets, think again. Then think yet again.

The OPEP is the living prove that the oil market is not regulated at all, because in the last 2 years the oil price has been set artificially to high levels

uh, you mean OPEC?

If Iraq were pumping out as much oil as they can prices would be around 20 U$D p.b.

lol, and where did you get this information from?

And for emprworm who says that US dont need it, well maybe they dont need that precise oil, but hell they need that oil go in to market so prices of other oils can be lower

no we dont. in fact, i hope it doesn't so that oil prices will stay high forcing us to locate sources in alaska, and convert reliance on nuclear energy.

"According to Abi Aad, an expert from the France-based Mediterranean Energy Observatory, the volume [of oil] Iraq withdrew from the market...amounts to no less than 5 percent of the total volume of crude ex-ported by oil-producing countries.

[Edric O]

Oil runs out = World War 3 begins

You don't really think people will be intelligent enough to see it coming and switch to other energy sources, do you? A massive economical crash will follow the loss of oil. Dictators like Hitler will rise to power by manipulating the people who've lost everything due to this crash. Democracy will end.

After a devastating war, the survivors will be left to pick up the pieces, ressurect democracy and build a better world.

[emprworm]

good. it has to happen. the short term consequences of the oil running out will be far worth the long term rewards.

and for Zamboe who criticizes the US for dropping out of the Kyoto protocol:

Here are some statistics for you. I'd say the US isnt doing all that bad compared to all the people who signed the protocol. So whether or not we sign it is irrelevant so long as we are reducing our emissions like everyone else.

Kyoto Protocol targets: Emission limitations and reduction requirements

Country Kyoto Target

(percentage change from 1990 emissions)

Australia +8

Bulgaria -8

Canada -6

Croatia -5

Czech Republic -8

Estonia -8

European Union (15) -8

Hungary -6

Iceland +10

Japan -6

Latvia -8

Liechtenstein -8

Lithuania -8

Monaco -8

New Zealand 0

Norway +1

Poland -6

Romania -8

Russian Federation 0

Slovakia -8

Slovenia -8

Switzerland -8

Ukraine 0

United States -7

Source: Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, Article 3, Annex B (U.N., New York, 1997). Available online at: http://www.unfccc.de//font>

[Edric O]

World War 3 will also bring about the fall of capitalism... (assuming that doesn't happen sooner)

But is that worth the lives of billions? I don't think so.

[emprworm]

yes, i agree the world economy would crash totally. fine. GOOD.

if oil is THAT important to the world, then it has to go. period.

there is abundant technology to power the world via nuclear and electrical energy. but you think OPEC would allow such technology to propogate? of course not. they are corrupt, Edric. Probably THE most corrupt organization on the planet. if getting rid of evil causes turmoil, then I see it as necessary. Its like you have a child who is using heroine. you cut off his heroine supply (or reduce it dramatically for a bit and then cut it off completely), and he will be in a state of chaos for a while. but in the long run, it was the best thing you could do for him.

[emprworm]

World War 3 will also bring about the fall of capitalism... (assuming that doesn't happen sooner)

lol, i highly doubt that. people are capitalistic by nature. the only way that would happen is if a dictator rose to power. give people freedom and they WILL be capitalists. WW3 may end the US version of capitalism, but not capitalism.

[Edric O]

but you think OPEC would allow such technology to propogate? of course not. they are corrupt, Edric. Probably THE most corrupt organization on the planet.

And the oil kings that put Bush into office are NOT corrupt?? ::)

[emprworm]

bush got into office because people voted for him.

[Edric O]

give people freedom and they WILL be capitalists

Wanna bet? What would you do if there was a free country that rejected capitalism? What if a system similar to mine was put into power and kept there by DEMOCRACY?

[emprworm]

edric, we've already been through this a million times. if people have freedom, they will want to buy/sell/trade amongst each other as they please. this IS capitalism. this will be what they WANT. Go to www.ebay.com and you will see pure, unfettered 100% pristine capitalism. If your government squelches people from doing that, then your government is not a free one. You can give no example ever in human history where freedom and capitalism do not co-exist. if you can give me and example, I am listening.

[Edric O]

So you simply expand your definition of capitalism to accomodate the new system... ::)

Examples in history? Nazi Germany, Argentina under Pinochet, etc. (capitalism without democracy). Also: Ancient Athens, the Roman Republic, etc. (democracy without capitalism)

You still haven't answered my question: What if THE PEOPLE of a country wanted to get rid of capitalism and replace it with something else? Would you allow it, or would you advocate a military intervention?

[Edric O]

bush got into office because people voted for him.

Actually, the majority of the American population voted for Al Gore.

And who do you think funded Bush's campaign?

[Dude_Doc]

How can you reject capitalism? If you reject capitalism, then you reject trading, getting money, getting stuff you want for money and ect. Okay, unless of course people WANT a dictator or something.

[Anathema]

bush got into office because people voted for him.

Actually, the majority of the American population voted for Al Gore.

And who do you think funded Bush's campaign?

Do you mean this was due to the winner-takes-all system or are you suggesting they commited fraud?

[Edric O]

Dude_Doc, I don't have the time to go through everything again. Read some of my older posts in earlier political debates.

I love freedom and eqality. Capitalism brings misery to millions of innocent people. Capitalism destroys the God-given eqality between human beings. Democracy and capitalism are two VERY DIFFERENT notions. I am working on a better system, a FAIR system.

On the political side, the power will be shared by a network of councils with no single ruler. It will be a web-shaped system, not pyramid-shaped (like our current system is).

[Edric O]

Do you mean this was due to the winner-takes-all system or are you suggesting they commited fraud?

Both. But most importanly, people are being manipulated en masse by those in power. Politicians are nothing more than puppets of the rich.

[Anathema]

Those that vote decide nothing. Those that count the votes decide everything.

-Josef Stalin

[emprworm]

Examples in history? Nazi Germany, Argentina under Pinochet, etc. (capitalism without democracy). Also: Ancient Athens, the Roman Republic, etc. (democracy without capitalism)

alas, edric will never get it.

#1. Nazi Germany did not have freedom. True capitalism requires freedom for all. Not freedom for some. The Jewish German Citizens had absolutely no freedom whatsoever to conduct business. Hence no capitalism and no freedom in Nazi Germany. You could argue that capitalism existed for the ARYANS within Germany, but not for Germany itself.

#2. Argentina- same thing.

#3. Athens? lol. You kidding? Slavery does not represent either system at all.

Here is a small primer on the government of Athens:

"The class system in Athens was made up of two distinct classes, Slaves, and Citizens. These classes were rarely open to any of the other classes, and citizenship alone was given only to male Athenians" source: http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/prehistory/aegean/culture/classesofathens.html

Freedom only for the male "citizens". Capitalism only for the male "citizens". But the society of Athens was majority slave. Hence there was no capitalism and no freedom for the society of Athens.

Your examples are all flawed Edric. In each of your examples, you cite a government that contains "class systems". Freedom and capitalism are always existing together in the privelege classes. But in the unprivelege classes neither freedom nor capitalism exists. So even in your flawed examples, they still co-exist! :) Show me a class of people that is truly free and is not capitalistic and I'll show you a fictional novel. Where true freedom lies, there will be capitalism. The only way to stop it, is to take away freedom.