What is your religion?

[emprworm]

Hahahahahahaha!! Are you saying the son of someone like Bill Gates has the same chances in life as the son of an unemployed drug addict?

yes I am.

On many, many levels.

[Anathema]

I don't know about the situation in Romania, but we're not hunting down christians over here if that's what you mean.

Exactly what do you mean by attacks on religion?

[Edric O]

The rich kid starts out with a well-paid college education and millions of dollars in his bank account.

The poor kid can't afford college and starts out with NOTHING.

Please explain how can they possibly have equal chances...

[Anathema]

Hahahahahahaha!! Are you saying the son of someone like Bill Gates has the same chances in life as the son of an unemployed drug addict?

yes I am.

On many, many levels.

Riiiiiiiight ::).

[emprworm]

being born into a wealthy family doesn't guarantee you anything. Bill gates success had nothing to do with his social status. He dropped out of school because he was flunking explictly against the wishes of those around him so that he could pursue a very personal vision he had that was radically different than anything his family or fathers had evern considered. He took low paying jobs in order to pursue this dream that would be impossible in a socialist government. His family may have had some money, but that had nothing to do with Bill Gate's interest in to pursue his dream. In the case with me, we were dirt poor, my mother on welfare growing up- i know what its like to eat tomato soup made with water for dinner- but even if we were billionares, i would STILL love music and it would still be my hobby.

Look at Oprah Winfrey- wealthiest woman in America. Grew up in poverty. She worked hard, and it paid off. Greedy people want to take her money away. This is greed that does not merit the kingdom of heaven.

Gates too IMMENSE RISK forming MIcrosoft. It could have collapsed leaving him in ruins. But he was a hard worker, and hark work paid off. And we all benefited from it. It doesn't bother me one iota that he is wealthy. I couldnt care less. There are more important things in life than material wealth.

read about Gates childhood.

http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Gates.Mirick.html

in this country, anyone can go to harvard. Even poor people (and they do all the time!) there are numerous grants available. A druggie has little chance in life because the druggie is reaping some consequences for BAD CHOICES. The druggie had the freedom to make those choices, but you cannot hold society responsible for the free choices of someone who wants to waste away on drugs. You always help them, but that is only if they WANT help- of which many do not. They just want hand-outs and freebies. True help is teaching a man how to fish, and not just handing him a fish (though that is not a bad thing, either, it is not the best thing).

[Dunenewt]

I'm Atheist

[Anathema]

During the industrial revolution countries such as England had huge poor working classes. The liberal idea behind all this was that everybody can think for himself and is thus responsible for making his own destiny- but little children didn't have the money or the time (they had to work too) to go to school- this is capitalist society.

Right now western countries have laws that garantue children school and in most countries there is social security- but we have socialist parties to thank for that.

[Edric O]

Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind.

- Mikhail S. Gorbachev

Jesus was a great advocate of equality. He always helped the poor and exposed the corruption of the rich.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

- Matthew 19:23,24

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

- Luke 16:19-25

And also the one time when Jesus became angry... at the (capitalist) shopkeepers that defiled His Temple:

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple.

And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

- Mark 11:15-17

Indeed, Jesus WAS a socialist...

[emprworm]

forcing children to work is slavery. capitalism forbids slavery. socialism is not required to prevent children from forced labor. Having said that, requiring children to be educated has some socialist roots, I will agree with that. But our society here in the US, parents have the freedom to raise their children in home school, public school OR private school (such as a Christian school). A socialist society would forbid such actions. All children would be taught by the state in a socialist society. And this is really really bad. When parents cannot raise their own children, and instead the government raises them, look out-- we have a major problem.

[Edric O]

Emprworm, you have a warped view of socialism. When I talk about it, you immediately think about the USSR. That is completely wrong.

A socialist society would not be conformist. You would NOT be forced into anything. First and foremost, any true socialist government needs to SERVE THE PEOPLE. It has to be democratic, or be otherwise accountable to the people.

In socialism, there would be no private schools. But parent would still have the freedom to school their children at home, or send them to a normal public school, or a CHRISTIAN PUBLIC SCHOOL, or any of the other types of public schools. You would have the same liberty of education as in capitalism, with one major difference:

You would not have to pay for it.

[Anathema]

capitalism forbids slavery

Who wrote the book of law for capitalism? Capitalism is just a system that allows competition, liberals prefer to keep the number of rules low. It was the effort of unions (a socialist concept) that forced the implementation of protective laws for workers.

A socialist society would forbid such actions. All children would be taught by the state in a socialist society

You're mixing up socialism and communism. Socialism just pleads for the protection of the socially weak- it does not plead for a system in where the state runs everything, that's communism.

You have both extremes on liberal and socialist sides- the best society is between both extremes, wich is why we need both socialist and liberal politicians to ensure a balance.

[emprworm]

You're mixing up socialism and communism. Socialism just pleads for the protection of the socially weak- it does not plead for a system in where the state runs everything, that's communism.

I am not. THere is no known example anywhere in the world or in history of a government protecting the "socially weak" as Edrics form of socialism defines, without running society. Edric is living in a fictional dream. He wants a government that is run by the people. Problem is that the people will decide they want to have private property. So then what? Will the government OVERRULE the people in that case? What Edric is saying flat out is that there is no such thing as private property. You own nothing. Government owns all. Yet at the same time he says the people rule the government. Impossible. This has NEVER occured in history and it never will. One or the other my friend. Second,if the government is going to take from the rich to give to the poor, you now have a government that basically runs everything. There is no true freedom because innovation is squelched. In Edric's government, there will be no innovation, no real desire for quality since there is no competition. Advances in technology would come to a screeching halt. Laziness would prevail since there is no incentive and no reward for hard work, unless of course the GOVERNMENT controls everything and doles out reward / payment to people based upon its criteria. According to Edric: "In a socialist system, lazy people are NOT paid as much as hard-working ones! Everybody is paid according to how much (or hard) he/she works."

Usually employers in a capitalist society are the ones who determine how hard a person works and how much pay they deserve. In Edric's government, all workers will be evaluated by the government. IMagine the immense beauracracy. 6 billion people being monitored by GOVERNMENT employees that really do nothing but watch everybody to see how hard they are working. Of course, many people will be so depressed because the government runs/owns everything that they will just lose all desire to work hard. As a result, you will begin to see 2 classes of people forming: the poor lower class people who do not care, apathetic, lazy because they despise the one world government; and those who work hard who rise to become wealthy. These wealthy people will find the easiest way to 'work hard." since the guy that works hard at flipping burgers gets paid the same amount as the guy that works hard drilling coal mines who gets paid the same amount as the guy who works hard making computer games, who gets paid the same amount as the guy who works hard writing writing novels (despite whether the novels are any good or not, as long as he works hard), therefore it is pretty obvious there will be tons and tons of jobs NO ONE will work. The hard workers will pick the 'easy jobs' (like a desk job or burger flipping- a no brainer), but because they work HARD at it, they draw MORE MONEY than the guy who runs a large company like CISCO. The CEO of CISCO, since he didnt put in as many hours as the guy flipping the burgers, he gets penalized that week with less pay. Thus the SMART people will be working hard at easy jobs, outsmarting the HUGE, GIGANTIC government with probably over 500 million employees (which will be full of more loopholes than sand on a seashore), thus polarizing the rich and the poor into two classes. Or perhaps Edrics government will force people to rotate jobs. Everyone takes a turn working the toilets and flipping burgers. That way, the guy who thinks he can skate by and make more money by doing an easy job will have to bear down and start pounding the railroad spikes and shoveling cow manure on the fields. Once you do your rotation, the gigantic 'democratic' (LOL) government will "relocate" you Unbelievably miserable existence. Might as well just go hang yourself on the first aspen tree. If at all possible, I would take a life in the wilderness before a demoralizing pitiful existence as a slave to society like that. O wait, I almost forgot. In Edrics world, the government owns the wilderness too.

Yet DESPITE SUCH A MISERABLE SOCIETY, of course Edric says he is for democracy. When its all said and done, Edric is a confused young man, but I like him because I think theres hope for him. Edric has never explained how his utpoian society could function. He has not explained how innovation and quality could even exist. He has not explained how a democracy could co-exist with a government that owns everything and forbids private property. If a hard working paramedic (which is massively high stress) gets the same pay as the hardworking park ranger "tending the park", WHO ON EARTH would be a paramedic? A surgeon? All those old peopel that Edric guarantees free health care, yet not enough medical professionals to give it! Uh-oh! He has not explained how or IF copyrights (both artistic and invention) would exist while democracy co-exists. If he is suggesting that everyone in the democracy would just "donate" their inventions / music / artistry / discoveries to the government for the "benefit of humanity" he really desperately needs to wake up. He has not explained why or HOW anyone could ever try to start a new business, run a company, etc, when they get the same pay as a burger-flipper. This whole internet thing that Edric loves to use so much is a product of the capitalist US government. Take this game, for example. I propose that in Edric's society, this game EBFD could not ever exist. Why? A game like this takes a LARGE TEAM of people to make. But this team of people does not start out as a team. It starts out as one or two. They must spend many many hours working on it. But in order to do this, they had to start a company, recruit new teammembers, and have a vision that this game would succeed. In Edrics society, when a guy approaches the government and says "I'm sick of burger flipping, I'm going to start making a computer game." How would Edrics government respond? WOuld it just let any joe schmoe start making a game? The pay is the same so why in the world would anyone want to flip burgers or have a high stress job? And if Edrics government allows a guy to quit his job and get paid making a computer game, how is he going to get other people involved? WIll Edric's government allow this guy to recruit other teammembers who will have to quit their current jobs to go work in another job making a game (for the same exact pay, mind you). And maybe this guy wants to make a HUGE game like Star Wars galaxies. He will need a team of 500 people. How would/could this happen in Edrics society? Does the government just let anyone do whatever they want and get paid the same whether success or failure just because they worked hard? If so, then EVERYONE would quit their jobs and start making games. And if those 500 people work a year making a game that sucks, I guess they STILL get paid just as well. SO who cares if people like the game! Edric has no idea, nor could he explain such an awful mess. The simple truth is that these things just wouldnt happen in Edric's world. Now how in the world is he going to make a game? O and I almost forgot the most important thing. If this is a democracy Edric proposes, he forgot to explain just how in the world people would actually WANT a government where they own nothing. People do not just vote away their rights to own property, or the ability to excel in society, or the freedom to start and run your own business, or the ability to create and own your own invention/patent/artwork or other creative accomplishment that other people may want to buy. In Edrics world, when Joe Schmoe creates a hit song from his own internal talent and abilities, to which the government imposes itself on Joe, steals his own song (you dont think Joe would actually OWN anything in Edrics society do you?) and then steals away his creative work, taking all profits off of it and Edric thinks Joe is going to VOTE FOR THIS? Hello? Anyone home? I do believe that 10 years from now, when Edric really truly sees that his utopia is impossible, he will remember our discussions and say to himself, "that emprworm was right all along!" ;D

[RotazoOm]

in modern times im too gothic!

i dont have more patience for church's etc...

i think that is the EBFD, sex movies, my dudes of school, and SLIPKNOT!!!! Marilyn Mason its Bored!!! :-

but im Christan!! ;)

[Anathema]

Nice long post Emp, but you don't need to tell us the flaws of a communist system, and you were twisting Edrics words.

In a socialist system, lazy people are NOT paid as much as hard-working ones! Everybody is paid according to how much (or hard) he/she works.

The Netherlands is a relatively socialistic country (compared to the US). Jobless people get minimal security, just enough to live, but only just enough- most people will try to find a job.

[Caid Ivik]

EdricO, you are from Romania, aren't you? So, you can see how productive is communism. Emprworm is truly right. There were some megalomanic projects, but quality, or at least variability of one type of product, was stagnating. Nearly frozen. How much products were made only for garbage, because "planned economy" just said how much fabric must product in next 5 years, without look on people's demand. Why? There was NO concurention, no "fight" of corporations for customer. This system should be nice in Master of Orion, but in real life, it would crash the state. Without 1989 revolt, communism should fall in next 10 years. China opened borders (at least for foreigns) and is receiving western capitalism, because they found communism ruining their billion country. Why should state do everything for it's people? That is against your majesty! You were created as picture of God! When the people are primitivized, it's just calling for those most smart and arrogant to take over rule in country! And those, who are smart, but honest, they must work as proletariat without any chance of change. What we, christian democrats, want, is equality in chances. Those smart and arrogant take quickly over socialistic control. They've built it. Those "people's democracies" were led by autocratic moneylust leaders. Jesus didn't want to make a new ruling system, he was sent to improve terms between people in society.

"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God‘s." - Mt 22,21

Many expected he will create "socialism" on Earth. But you may see it in heaven ;) . If you'll can. But now, only type of government, where people rule, is democracy.

[TMA_1]

Give unto caesar what is caesar's. The bible isnt a political hand book. It is for teaching us the redemption of christ and how to grow in a relationship. We follow our government. weather it's a communist dictatorship or a capitalist republic like ours. We follow the commands of our government. The only thing we do that is said, even if it is illegal or not is to give the gospel. Other than that we follow our government. The bible teaches individuals in a nation. Christ will eventually come with that perfect government. till then we as believers are subserviant.

[emprworm]

The Netherlands is a relatively socialistic country

if you have private property in the Netherlands and the ability to start and run your own business, you are not even close to socialistic.

[Anathema]

If the state owns everything, the state isn't just socialist, it's communist. Stop mixing those two.

[Edric O]

That was a nice essay, Emprworm. Thanks for pointing out the evils of COMMUNISM.

Caid Ivik, for the millionth time, stop mixing communism with socialism! Romania, Russia (I mean the USSR), China, etc. were COMMUNIST countries. COMMUNISM doesn't work.

Socialism is different.

For one thing, socialism has to be a democracy, where the people own the government. There IS some degree of private property. There has to be. Your home is yours alone, for example. But the means of production belong to everybody. Not to the government, but to the people.

(I don't have the time to write everything now, I'll come back later)

[Edric O]

I'm seriously pressed by time, but I have to say this:

Emprworm, your essay on communism put words in my mouth every other sentence. WHO ARE YOU TO KNOW WHAT I THINK?

I can't believe how ridiculous that essay is. You kept saying "Edric wants this" and "Edric would do that", but in fact all those things are the exact OPPOSITE of my ideals.

Please edit your post and remove the ad hominem attacks. Otherwise I will respond in kind and put words in YOUR mouth, so you can see how it feels.

[Anathema]

I think the problem is that Emp accepts a different definition of socialism then I and Edric do.

In my defenition, socialism is a system that allows free market economy, but protects the poor and socially weak from the negative effects of it (unemployement, etc).

Apparently Emp doesn't know the difference between communism and socialism- but what do you expect from someone from a country in where there the major parties are all right wing parties? Now don't say Democrats are left wing- by Dutch standards they are right wing.

[DukeLeto]

Back on topic, infidels!!! >:(

[Caid Ivik]

I was trying to say it, TMA. Anyway EdricO, communism is just kind of socialism. But also, the only kind practically tried. You could see how people's materialism made that idea UNABLE to commence. Who do you think creates government now? Aliens, androids? People! Everyone can be now in politics! If Aristoteles saw this, he would roll in his grave. Your idealistic socialism can't be democratic, it would fall because the people want still more and more. Jesus tried to erase it, to make us less highbrow, not to remake our ruling systems.

[emprworm]

That was a nice essay, Emprworm. Thanks for pointing out the evils of COMMUNISM.

O good grief, I am so SICK of this. Cant you guys think of anything else to say? I am asking a TON of valid questions.

I ask you 50 questions regarding your form of government and rather than answering A SINGLE ONE OF THEM you just respond with this broken record response. Pathetic. Edric man you are being a coward, cmon dude dont make me iggy you again. I started talking to you again last week when I thought maybe we could return to a good conversation. Quit the lame responses.

If I am not understanding your government right, then why dont you start EXPLAINING things rather than spewing such a weak response?

If what I am saying is merely communism then you need to EXPLAIN HOW.

I am making a genuine effort here, and you are copping out in a major way, both you and earthnuker are a couple of cop outs and I'm losing some major respect here.

Having an entire post dismissed and blown off says to me that your position is frail, weak, and based on unfounded irrational whims. I describe some very valid scenarios regarding private property, quality, and innovation and all you respond is "Thats communism?" HOW THEN. I have brought up the private property issue multiple times to both you and earthnuker and the only thing you can say is the mindless rhetoric: "thats communism". Well other people in this forum can see the cowardice in such an intellectually weak answer. Earthnuker takes it to a lower level with his bit about what could you expect from a democrat, etc. Well let me tell you what I expect from anyone who claims to have the intelligence of at least a 13 year old. I expect you to EXPLAIN things then and not just dismiss them. If my understanding of socialism is wrong, then START clarifying . Start pointing out specifically exactly what I am wrong about and then start explaining the real meaning. Cut the 10 year old responses. Both of you.

If I am wrong, that is great, I dont have a problem with that. But you do me no favors with crap answers like that. WHy dont you start EXPLAINING HOW this stuff can exist in your socialist government. Start explaining about SOCIALISM and start pointing out just exactly HOW your government is going to work then.

I do not want you to explain the literal definition of socialism. I want you to explain everything in light of EDRICS FORM of socialism

Here is where I stop talking to you again Edric. I am asking that you go back to my post- that long essay. I want you to actually address it. You dont have to address all of it, but I want you to have some courage this time and dont duck behind a lame response. Where I am wrong about communism, I want to you be a man, step up to the plate and EXPLAIN (wow, explain something for once) how socialism is different. Until you actually respond to that post, this will be my last response to you. I want you address the following issues as I discussed them (dont just address them from this list, I want to hear you address them in response to how I addressed them in my long post. If you need me to clarify anything, just let me know, ill be glad to)

Quality

Innovation

Copyright & Private Property

The monitoring of employees and who decides how 'hard' you worked

Motivation

The forming of upper and lower classes of people as I explained it would occur

Changing Jobs (specifically the problems I addressed with people finding the easiest way to 'work hard')

Creating a New business (specifically, How EBFD could have ever existed in your government)

Until I hear you address these points, any such "thats communism" rhetoric will be summariliy dismissed and no further dialogue between me and both Edric and earthnuker will take place. Sorry but I cannot allow myself to spend an hour making a post having it dismissed like that when there are many other people in the world who would enjoy a good discussion.

Because neither you nor earthnuker had a modicum of dignity or courage to actually explain your positions, my essay is 100% accurate as far as I'm concerned. And other people in this forum agree with me. Maybe you guys should start EXPLAINING things (esp. the private property issue, innovation, quality, and my explanation of how Edrics government would create an upper and lower class- I WANT TO HEAR YOU TALK ABOUT THAT)

If you want people to know what TRUE socialism is, then start addressing the issues and quit hiding behind your little "thats communism" cliche.

WHen someone misunderstands something, dont blow them off. Point out the misunderstanding and explain how the real thing works in contrast to the misunderstanding. Blowing people off is not good. How else can people learn if you do that?

I'm not wanting to come down hard on you like this, but I know you can do better than that. Assuming you can rationally defend your positions, cheap responses like that completely stiffle the conversation and are, well, just plain rude.

Its really disappointing that you guys did this. Extremely. I will hope that soon I will see some real responses to my post. I know its long, but I also know that you have the time to read it, and that having a good discussion with someone from another part of the world makes it worth it. ;D

[Anathema]

You keep saying that in a communist country there is no private property, thus the state owns everything.

State owns everything = State runs everything

Isn't that communism?

Socialism = Communism

That's the way YOU think.

The idea behind socialism is that the socially weak need to be cared of- that doesn't mean everybody is paid the same or that there is no private property.

Why the system in your statement is communism, and not just socialism?

In your statement the state owns everything and all wages are equel- properties that neither me, or Edric, have ascribed to socialism. You did. I have already defined my defenition before.

But if you want to insult me, please don't stop. Your accusitions are quite amusing.