The Binladenian Jihad

[thomas]

oh and I think about 33% of the terrorist attack was the US fault we became too cocky and let are gaurd down and said "hey attack us" and I think it is good we are taking out the taliban the way they treat women is not right. think of it this way a wife that can't read, write, or make money, becomes a leech which is not good and the burka isn't even in the coran nor is the way they  treat women in fact 1,500 years ago I think there was a fight for better treat ment for women.

[Mahdi]

um...mahdi the they have photos also means they have their passports and with the atm photos they found out who they were the leader of the 20 who died in the attack was egyptian and they found the anti america hand book in his hotel room.

Passports can be faked easily.

and Mahdi why did they kill about 6,500 civillians if they wanted the US alone all that did was piss us off and have us go out and kill alot off middle eastern people in the middle east.

Like I said, they don't care aobut killing, if they cared about killing there would be a lot more people with Anthrax right now, or they would have used something like small pox which is contagious and therefore much more dangerous.  They were destroying symbles Trh, not killing people.  If they wanted to kill people they could have crashed into a baseball stadium and get a hell of a lot more casualties.

and I agree with you that we should us SAS, delta force, and JTF to infiltrate and kill the terrorists and the base camps instead of just firing off alot of missles.

So you are argueing about what exactly?  

(P.S., that above is actually not supposed to be sarcastic.  I am actually confused about what point you are trying to prove).

and as for the IRA they are fighting for respect and independance

So you're sayiing that the IRA arn't terrorists?

like the black panthers and how the retard malcom x preached(MLK jr's way was better tham x's in which they did a peace ful protest which worked instead  of starting a second civil war

I'm not going to touch that.  It isn't really relevant to the conversation, and I do nto know much about Malcolm X's teachings.

[Mahdi]

oh and I think about 33% of the terrorist attack was the US fault we became too cocky and let are gaurd down and said "hey attack us"

I bleeive that people are resonsible for there actions.  For, the US may have contributed to the situation that forced them to make there decisions (mostly there foriegn policy), but I don't belevive the attacks are the faults of Americans (even 33%).  The US ahd been lucky up to Septmeber 11 when it came to terrorist attacks, but, in the end, no matter what security you put up, unless you turn your country into a police state, and even then, there will still be ways to strike.

and I think it is good we are taking out the taliban the way they treat women is not right. think of it this way a wife that can't read, write, or make money, becomes a leech which is not good and the burka isn't even in the coran nor is the way they  treat women in fact 1,500 years ago I think there was a fight for better treat ment for women.

No, the way they treat women isn't right according to our sense of the word, but then you are getting into really deep philisophical discussions that really through us off topic:)

[ordos45]

Well Mahdi brought up a point I like to address before anything else.  Patriotism, while it may seem like Nazi Germany at times it is not.  However if you notice that suddenly "God Bless America" is popping up everywhere, you should also notice that it was barely up before.  If we want to only say things like "God Bless America" during times of crisis then fine, but why don't we say it during normal times?

Next up is human error.  Human error destroyed those Red Cross Centers and the food, which means some pilot screwed up.  One mistake that could cost millions their lives.

Now I have also heard around my school, church, and community that we have children bad off here in America as well, so why waste the money on Afghan kids...we have kids just as bad off here.   Let me tell you that I believe that to be pure bull.  Show me one American child born in America that has lived under military dictatorship and has been told what to believe or die.  Show me children in America that have seen their mothers beat to death just because their veils slipped and revealed their faces.

I do love my country, and I do pray for my leaders.  Yet I do not agree with everything they do.  This war is costing the US billions of dollars and is only taking away some of the Taliban and terrorist teeth.  I seriously doubt Bin Laden is still in Afghanistan.

[Mahdi]

I raised only one intersting point?  Do you know how long it took me to write that rant?!

[ordos45]

Sorry it was the only one I could get up a good rant up for Mahdi.

1. Anyhow, the KKK has held a rally in my city before.  We have a black mayor and they didn't like that.  So we spent $120,000 on security measures to protect 6 clansmen.  Downtown was shut down because no store could sell anything that could be thrown (eveything).  Protestors for and against the clan were there, and so was one of my teachers under those robes.  They may be the US's home-bred terrorists, but last time I checked they were nowhere near as efficient as eliminating the WTC Towers.

2. I have been to Pierce's compund before.  he is a racist that lives in WV.  I went there to try and get a interview for Jounalism 1, I barely got out of their because I went with someone they didn't consider WHITE enough.  Oh and does it make sense that he sells Racial hate Rap music?

3. The IRA.  They fought for freedom and then signed a treaty.  And as pointed out gave up many of their weapons.  The road to legitamacy in government is usually the laying down of arms.

Ok, that is my rant for now.

[Mahdi]

Ah, its ok Ordos:)

"The IRA.  They fought for freedom and then signed a treaty.  And as pointed out gave up many of their weapons.  The road to legitamacy in government is usually the laying down of arms."

They may be on the way to becoming legitamite, but they've always been terrorists, and still are.

[thomas]

malcom x preached that african americans should retaliate to the anti african propiganda of the 60-70s and told them to take up arms which is like how terrorists do things but the followers of MLK did peaceful protests instead of breaking out hell. the black panthers are basicly red neck militants that are african and aren't red necks. if I am wrong tell me because I am sort of not that familier with the subject, same with IRA. I think the Ira are fighting for better treatment by catholics but are not doing it right like the black panthers(I don't know if they attacked anyone) but I do agree they are terrorists just not like the al-quida group. the SAS, JTF, delta force thing is I agree with ex in witch we need to take out taliban AA defences so we can bomb bases but only the ones a couple miles a way or more from villages and citys. so we ave no civilian casualites I agree with mahdi in which we use special ops to take out leaders and camps of terrorists.

ordos you are right in giving money to afgahn children but wont the taliban take it away from them

late

[exatreide]

I dont think the KKK can be considerd a terrorist orginzation. dont get me wrong i hate them. they represent the worst in the usa(a bunch of white trash). But they have only done peaceful ralies(by peaceful i mean no shots were fired.) in the past 20 years.

If the terrorists started doing peacful marches(by peaceful i mean no burning bush dolls.) they would get alot more respect. But they dident choice this route. But there choice was violense. And as my school pricibul  alwas says(when i am sitting in his office.) violence never sloves anything.

If you are walking down the hall and some kid jumps you and punches you in the shins. you punch him back. Simple self defense(thats what i alwas tell the pricibul). and thats how the us is responding.

Briten and most of the world is like the us's best friend if they see him get jumped there gona jump in there. they feel it is there duty.

But the plea of self defense ends when you chase the kid down the hall and beat his sister up.

And Mahdi i admit you are right.

[quoudam72]

I do not think that the KKK is considered a terrorist organization (atleast not by todays standards) they are seperatist. The same would go for the former Black Panthers. I agree with Mahdi to the extent of his logical reasoning on the subject of terrorism and the related.

[Guest looking_back_at_ourselves]

i think everyone should read this speech.

http://www.zmag.org/GlobalWatch/chomskymit.htm

it made me think a lot

to give a little background, Noam Chomsky is a renowned linguist at M.I.T. Although linguistics is his main vocation, social studies/issues/political science is his avocation, and he is mainly known by his works on it.

[Mahdi]

I skimmed through about half of it.

[ordos45]

Ex, who writes your history books?  They need fired.

No one ever remembers everythingt he KKK has done when they aren't doing a peaceful protest.  They have beat people to death, killed people because they were the wrong color, started church fires, etc.

btw, going to click on the link to read it now.

[alejandro]

WARNING

[ordos45]

Ah Alex, do not always assume that I do not read.  I have read numerous histories on the KKK and American history in general.

[alejandro]

I dont, only a little in world history, and that is the cause i didnt say anything about it.

[thomas]

my new proposion is the is : a country kills some 5,000 americans and that is called terrorism whaile the US kills some 5,000 people and calls it foreign policy. I got from my 20 year old sister.

[kloball4100]

this speech is definitely mind-blazing. i actually read this before (a lot of my friends here in Cali are fans of noam)i actually have read open veins of latin america, and i think all of you should read it as well. howard zinn's people's history of the united states is tite as well. the people on this board who says the textbooks we use in school suck are correct. today's mainstream media/informative industry totally blocks our facts that are vital to know.

ex. did you know Woodrow Wilson was a racist against blacks and actually re-segregated the federal government? In addition, he was strongly against women's suffrage, and only supported it when he realized women getting their right to vote was imminent and inevitable. bet you never read that in the textbook.

note: did you know open veins of latin america is on the top 10 list of banned books in south america?

[kloball4100]

come to think of it, terrorism used on a daily basis. if you threaten to beat up someone b/c he was talking up some trash, that is terrorism. ur using terror to accomplish something. in addition, i think human lead lives that are often full w/ hypocrisies. if you think about it, during the american revolutionary war, the revolutionaries terrorized about 8,000 loyalists (probably more), burning their homes and such. it was even worse during the segment of the French Revolution that is often known as the "Reign Of Terror," where i think but im not sure but around 20,000 political prisoners were executed. obviously, as implied by "terror", the "Reign of Terror" were led by some radicals who wanted to instill revolutionary ideals, and did it through terror. ironically, it was contradictory.

[kloball4100]

first i wanna explain why im suddenly posting so much, particularly after my recent resignation from the war (not so recent now i think). but political commentary and political/historical analysis is my thing...)

to ex: i think the only reason britain is helping out the u.s. is cuz they want the U.S. to crackdown on IRA resources in the U.S. (most of IRA finances comes from Boston, and whereever there is a concentration of Irish-Americans). its kinda like the gulf war deal, b/c Kuwait was a major supplier of oil to countries like Japan, the U.S. finished off Iraq to save Japan from an oil crisis, and therefore, Japan, to save face, reduced their tariffs on U.S. goods imported into their country.

by the way, did you know the primary reason for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? b/c Kuwait operated a number of oil drills that operated diagonally downwards, crossed the Iraqi-Kuwaiti border, and drilled into Iraqi underground oil stores?

in addition, before the Gulf War, Iraq had one of the strongest military in the middle east, perhaps the strongest. and that came from the United States, which supported Iraq in the war against Iran, which became anti-U.S. after the Shah was overthrown.

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KKK was founded by Gen. Nathan Forrest and various other confederate leaders. Gen. Nathan Forrest soon regretted his action, as a bunch of rednecks and basically everyone in the South who lost everything in the civil war began taking out their anger on black people. the civil war was destined to happen since the founding of the colonies. while the northern and middle colonies formed manufacturing businesses, the south built its wealth on farm plantations that thrived on the toils of slaves. as u can see, these two economic systems are extremely different. after independence, it is obvious that the north and the middle (i.e. new york and pennsylvania), wanted high tariffs (tax on imports, in case you didnt know.), and the south wanted low tariffs on imports. this is because the two produced different things. the north & the middle produced manufactured goods, while the south produced raw material, cotton for one. here is how it goes: high tariffs was needed to protect the infant American industries against the already super-developed British industries. however, many textile mills of england used southern cotton. therefore, if the tariffs are high, these textile mills are less likely to buy southern cotton, due to the fact that the tariffs will discourage americans from british goods in the first place. because of the higher population concentration in the north and middle, the north and middle often got their way, and south carolina almost seceded in the 1830s (30 years before the civil war would begin).

anyways...yes the KKK is a terrorist organization. look at it, parading around town saying "we will kill Blacks, Jews, Asians" is terrorizing do you all think? terror is terror.

[Mahdi]

it was even worse during the segment of the French Revolution that is often known as the "Reign Of Terror," where i think but im not sure but around 20,000 political prisoners were executed. obviously, as implied by "terror", the "Reign of Terror" were led by some radicals who wanted to instill revolutionary ideals, and did it through terror. ironically, it was contradictory.

[quoudam72]

Let me clear what I was saying of course they are a terrorist organization (KKK) but are we concerned with them as say Osama and his organization? I should have worded it better before I posted excuse me. And another thing about the Civil War or "War Inbetween the States" it was also about preserving the Union. If the Southern states had won then the Confedrate States would have been another country.

Most of what you mention about the Iran/Iraq conflict is true it is very similar in ways to what we are seeing now with Bin Laden a former US supported fighter/s turn against the US for other political reasons. I find it strange that everytime the US funds these type of fighters that they always turn on the US and start to fight them (the US) what kind of karma is that?  

Does the United States also have a home grown problem with terrorists that is not being address? I ask anyone because of the mention of an organization like the KKK. They have been tolorated for many years where do they stand in this war on terrorism?

[nemafakei]

They stand to get a big kick if they do anything to remind people of their presence. I maintain that the US is just being hypocritical. If the war drags on for long (and it will), people will forget about destroying terrorism around the world, and war will get unpopular... so the only terrorists that (might) get hurt will be Bin Laden and his friends. The US preaches to the world the evil of terrorism, but will destroy an installed government, and maybe a muslim with a big grudge. Any other terrorists even in the USA will keep their heads down for a year or two, and they'll come out unharmed, ready to cause more terror.

Can you imagine this war on terrorism going back to the USA, where military forces will attack US citizens in the KKK, or British ones in the R-IRA? No. But they're happy to bomb Afghan cities.

US Foreign policy has never to my knowledge, produced a successful end. Nor will it in the current situation.

[thomas]

hey nema you posted the same thing twice delete one!!!

[ordos45]

Yeah, the US is being hypocritical.  I believe I quote the United States government here "We will not stop until all terrorists are dead."  That would mean that they will never stop in history.  And as Nema said the Taliban, even though it overthrew a rightful government, is a rightful government now.  However politics and morals are almost never ont he same side.