The Harkonnen Airstrike

[Timenn]

It's one of the point of the Harkonnens what makes them strong in late battle. And can give them a chance for beating the Atreides then. (Mino/NIAB/Fedaykin etc. Rush)

The Harkonnen Gunship Airstrike Rush

It's attacking with about 20 Gunships at the time. And destroy almost the half of the enemy's base. And you can't do alot anymore then.

The Harkonnens have then already build enough Helipads so they can quickly reload.

Now the strategy, how to stop them?

Building alot of Airdrones with Atreides is a good suggestions.

1. They block the Gunships, at least they slow them down for some moments, what gives them more time for :

2. Destroying those ships.

Ordos can use AA Mine's. Which often destroys a whole Gunship per AA Mine. And an AA Mine is quicker build and cheaper.

But what about Harkonnen?

Do people have more strategies against the rush, with Atreides, Harkonnen, or Ordos. Post them here:

[IxianMace]

Ordos can use AA Mine's. Which often destroys a whole Gunship per AA Mine.

Actually, I've found that a single AA mine vs a single fully repaired Gunship will NEVER destroy the Gunship, even if all the missile hit. The Gunship will be very seriously damaged (about 90%), but it will still be alive.

Harkonnen Strat against Gunships:

The Harkonnen have the best air defence capabilities of all the 3 houses, so they should have no problem eating even a large rush of 20 Gunships.

1. Gun turrets will kill Gunships easily. Place them around the base and around the cliffs.

2. A group of troopers at the Construction yard can help to kill additional gunships.

3. Missile Tanks are a welcome addition, if they are sitting around the base, they can get off shots to speed up the destruction of the airstrike.

[path_xiii]

The tactics ive given below are based on QM settings and playing styles. For custom games where starting cash can be much higher, some may not apply....

With Atreides:

I'd use mass airdrones. Keep checking your radar and enemy territory for the gunship assault. As soon as the gunships leave their pads move your airdrones towards them and fly *alongside* or *slight in front* of them... to where ever they're going to. Airdrones can outfly gunship missiles so as long as u keep the drones flying straight they shouldn't get hit. If done properly not one gunship should reach their destination, providing u use enough drones (usually about 2 drones to 3 gunships), and there is enough time/distance before gunships reach their targets.

You can have engineers waiting next to your buildings for rapid repair should gunships reach ur base. Of course, if there are 20 gunships firing all at once on your conyard/fac/ref then engineers aren't going to save it. You can only 'engineer repair' against gunships if there are low numbers of them - about 3-8. Thats why u need to airdrone them b4 they reach ur base.

Having engies, mongoose and the odd missile turret are last-resort counters against gunships that survive the drone tactic.

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With Ordos:

Ordos' best defense against the Gunship rush is to not let the Hark player build up sufficient numbers of them. Keep attacking early on with fast, cheap, strong ordos ground units and he'll have to spend all his cash on ground units too to defend. Put pressure on his spice production too. If he builds a hangar, upgrades it, and builds gunships, it'll cost him a few thousand solaris - meaning he'd have lower spending on his ground units.

If the Hark player is able to hold back your early assault long enough, he'll be able to afford to build gunships... If you see a hangar pop up on his rock you need to start building your gunship defense. I'd use engineers and mass aa-troops.

The AA mine can be useful against gunships but u need to space them out around your base so they all don't aim for the same gunship - a waste if they do.

The ordos APC is too weak against the gunship for its cost.

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With Hark:

I haven't used Hark much so I wouldn't know the best gunship counters.

Id probably use engies, aa troops, missile tanks.... and of course gunships to get him BEFORE he gets you!!!

i'll be trying Hark on QM this month so hopefully i'll be able to give better tactics after ive experimented a little. ;)

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Using the IX projector tank is an option. Projected missile tanks, sard eiltes are good gunship counters.

[Timenn]

Good ones. I found that one with flying alongside the Gunships a good one!

[Navaros]

Tons of Gunships won't hurt a good ATR player unless he has already been crippled. Though it is incorrect that they won't reach their destination. Sometimes they might leave their base without you seeing them for a while, in which case they might get one, maybe two buildings maximum, but that is completely irrelevant because by that point all his Gunships are dead and the buildings get replaced. As ATR, Gunships make me laugh.

I don't play the other Houses very well but here is my speculation:

As for Ordos, I recommend using AA troopers and Sard Elites rather than AA Mines 'cause AA Mines suck and are a huge waste of money. I am surprised to see Frosco recommending them because I played many hard (for *me*) QM's vs him and he never used AA Mines. Though it's true I used Air Drones instead of Gunships - but still, AA Mines are worthless.

For Hark, gotta be the same. ADP's over your base might be a good idea but on the field they won't help you very much IMO, so learn how to position AA troopers and Sards well. Missile tanks are quite good too. Hark doesn't get screwed quite as bad as Ordos in terms of AA defense.

[Devastator_Mech]

I have realised that a couple or more AA mines detonate themselves only for a single target.

Ever tried use Gunships vs air-drones? Air-drones will be like one-hit kill, each could be destroy by a Gunship in one shot.

And missiles just reloads to slow, they just won't be efficient. Troopers, devastators, or even turrets will be much more effective.

[IxianMace]

I have realised that a couple or more AA mines detonate themselves only for a single target.

Ever tried use Gunships vs air-drones? Air-drones will be like one-hit kill, each could be destroy by a Gunship in one shot.

And missiles just reloads to slow, they just won't be efficient. Troopers, devastators, or even turrets will be much more effective.

The part about the AA mines: That depends on how far apart you space the AA mines. Obviously, if you move a group of AA mines into a cluster, and then one aircraft comes into range of all of them, they will all detonate and attack that one target. If the AA mines are spaced apart, then a aircraft flying into range of a certain AA mine will not fly into range of another AA mine before it is destroyed (or at least seriously damaged by the first AA mine missile salvo, in the case of the Gunship).

The part about the air drones: It was said earlier by frosco that the air drones will not get hit since they are flying alongside the gunships and can out run the missiles that the gunships fire.

[Devastator_Mech]

It can when its flying straight towards something, but not when its patroning in circles.

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I am surprised to see Frosco recommending them because I played many hard (for *me*) QM's vs him and he never used AA Mines. Though it's true I used Air Drones instead of Gunships - but still, AA Mines are worthless.

Yeh ur right Nav, i didn't use them... I went for EITS to take out the Hark's base first. ;D But if your opponent has gunships ready to attack, then you'll need mines. Having a few floating above your base will work - any more and the extras will be a waste.

I mainly relied on fast early assaults so the Hark player couldn't build gunships. But when they did manage to, a few mines would have helped a lot alongside my aa troops and engineers. I had a hangar but didn't bother with mines (laziness and didn't think they were useful) - but thinking about it afterwards, a few would have saved a couple of my buildings.

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EDIT: Anyway, i think the topic here is 'defending against 20 gunships'. When i wrote the Ordos counter, i was thinking along the lines of about 5-8. As Ordos, ive never let my opponent build more than about 8 gunships. If u let your opponent build 20 gunships u must be doing something wrong. 20 Gunships = $20,000. ..You should have amassed a HUUUUGE ground force by then....

[Devastator_Mech]

If you have a multiple of harvesters, then $20,000 wouldn't take very long to get.

[path_xiii]

yeh, but the same applies to both players. If a Hark player built multiple refs/harvs and made $20,000 in no time, so could Ordos. By the time Hark has a hangar, upgraded and made 20 gunships, Ordos would have made 7 Kobras, 7 Lasers, 25 Dustscouts (as an example) - OR could have spent it on 10 EITS.... ... or a huge force of 30 Sards + 30 Dusties... or 8-10 NIABS ...

[IxianMace]

yeh, but the same applies to both players. If a Hark player built multiple refs/harvs and made $20,000 in no time, so could Ordos. By the time Hark has a hangar, upgraded and made 20 gunships, Ordos would have made 7 Kobras, 7 Lasers, 25 Dustscouts (as an example) - OR could have spent it on 10 EITS.... ... or a huge force of 30 Sards + 30 Dusties... or 8-10 NIABS ...

That's not necessarily true. It depends on what BO each player uses, and how fast he/she can pump out their attack force. Sarduakar take long to train (unless you have 3 Sarduakar barracks), and building up Gunships will probably be faster than getting some of the combinations listed above.

[Devastator_Mech]

Using the time to build 30 gunships, i'll say you could probably build only 10 sard elite (i barrack and 1 hangar). Because Ordos units take less time to build so you could probably do it......

[Timenn]

Ok, 20 is the maximum I ever saw. But mostly it are about 10-12

[Devastator_Mech]

Well in general, yes. But im just trying to say, training a Sardaukar Elite will take ages !!!

[IxianMace]

That's why you build 3 Sarduakar barracks. Once you have 3 Sarduakar barracks, you should be able to pump out Sarduakar Elite much faster. You should have a nice collection of Sarduakar Elite in your base by the time you see the Gunship rush heading your way. Once the Gunships start for your base, run your Sarduakar Elite out of your base and onto the sand. Support them with some anti-infantry vehicles just in case the enemy decides to counter your Sarduakar Elite with Fremen Warriors. Now when the Gunships pass overhead, your Sarduakar Elite will fry a few of the Gunships to pieces. When the entire rush has passed the Sarduakar Elite force, run your Sarduakar Elites back into the base and attack the Gunship force. Sooner or later the Gunships will be drastically reduced in number. Since Sarduakar Elite are quite quick, they should have no problem in getting back to your base in time to keep attacking the Gunships.

[Devastator_Mech]

Yeah, i agree, Gunships are actually quite slow compared to other Atreidies aerial units. But the Gunships armour is quite tough, if there's 5 gunships and 5 elite, it'll probably take out a key structure before your completely eliminate them all.

[Timenn]

Ok, but I'm convinced that you can have much more elite Sardaukar standing for a less number of Gunships

[Devastator_Mech]

By what way can you? beside cheats. You can build a Gunship much faster than train an Elite, therefore, you can build an air-force much quicker than build a force of Elites.

[Timenn]

Hmm. buildtime for an Elite = 689

Buildtime for a Gunship = 499

Ok, you are right :)

[IxianMace]

Like I said, that's why you get 3 Sardaukar barracks. It's highly unlikely that anyone will want 3 hangers, so what would the difference in build time be now? ???

[Timenn]

Eh, I've seen alot of people who have 3 hangers. Maybe more then people who had 3 barracks

[IxianMace]

Well if those people get 3 hangers, they'll probably be wasting base real estate to get Gunships quickly. Anyway, would someone be able to pump out Sardaukar Elites faster than someone that was pumping out Gunships if it was a ratio of 3 Sardauakar Barracks, to 1 Harkonnen hanger that the other player has? :-

[Devastator_Mech]

Well you first need to know how much faster each barrack enables you......

[Timenn]

They waste the same as they are wasting when building more barracks. And it's like this:

1 Building of the same type: Unit Build Speed = 100% (standard)

2 Buildings of the same type: Unit Build Speed = 150%

3 Buildings of the same type: Unit Build Speed = 200%

4 or more Buildings of the same type: No better effect then 3 Buildings